Monday, February 21, 2011

What does Hitler have in common with this union busting in Wisconsin and the spread across our great nation?

 As you can easily see by my postings lately, I am totally obsessed by this union busting story coming out of Wisconsin.... so today I found on FB a new one for ya. I saw Leslie had joined into the conversation on this article from the awesome informative site   News Junkie Post.  Tons of great info on the protests. And the truth, so go read!


On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested.  Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished.  This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.
Fast forward to America today, particularly Wisconsin.  Governor Walker and the Republican/Tea Party members of the state legislature are attempting to pass a bill that would not only severely punish public unions (with exception for the police, fire, and state trooper unions that supported his campaign), but it would effectively end 50 years to the right of these workers to collectively bargain.

Collective bargaining is a process of voluntary negotiations between employers and trade unions aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs. -wiki


First of all, assaulting the rights of workers to collectively bargain has absolutely nothing to do with any immediate budgetary issues.  It does however have everything to do with ending one of the basic rights of labor to organize. Please read the rest....

Now tell me folks, what has President Obama done in the past 2 years that looks anything like a dictatorship? Those who have turned their backs on Obama and criticize his every move better wake up to what the Rightwing wants to do to America. If you think I'm off base talking about Hitler and the Republicans in the same sentence then you better get yourselves educated on unions and Wisconsin.


I GOOGLED fascist republicans and found this...Hub pages

Are Republicans Fascist?

Roger Griffin, arguably the most prominent fascist historian, has a solution which succeeds where everyone else has failed, defining the concept of a fascist minimum of "paligenetic ultra-nationalist populism". Paligenetic means rebirth: Griffin is talking about a far-right party which exudes iconography suggesting the nation arise like a phoenix from the ashes.
Although the definition is not widely known outside of the historical community, it is the only definition which can sum up fascism in less than a couple of paragraphs, much less three words, and has gained widespread acceptance amongst scholars.
I thought for some time that this would eliminate the possibility of the Republican party being fascist. Its visual iconography is not remotely paligenetic. Mostly, you think of Republicans, and you think of old rich guys in suits. Throughout its history it has been a party of the centre right, not remotely fascist in nature.
But, this ignores the significant and growing influence on the party of influential groups such as evangelical churches, the Tea Party. The individual, like George Bush, who describes himself as born-again, is literally expressing his belief in paligenesis. Not of nationhood, though the nationalism of the Republican party is not in doubt, but of his soul. This suggests the possibility of a peculiarly American form of fascism, and one potentially more virulent than the ones we know of from the thirties and forties, as it has a spiritual, cult-like component. Only the followers of Codreanu in Romania, whose beliefs made Hitler seem mild-mannered, developed a form of fascism that perverse.
Additionally, the neo-con influence on the party provides additional defining characteristics of fascism. It has turned a moderate, isolationist patriotic party into an aggressive interventionist ultra-nationalist one, ready to invade other nations on purely territorial grounds.
When assessing the influence of these outside groupings, you have to consider how fascism would most likely emerge in America, if in fact, emerge it did. It wouldn't be possible for a radical third party to emerge and win office, the constitution has many specific provisions which make that almost impossible. In the most probable scenario, radical groupings would infect the body of a major political party, probably (though not necessarily) the Republicans, establish an elite with major influence over the president out of all proportion with their popularity. This is what has happened.
When it comes to historical parallels,it becomes much simpler to make comparisons. It is not difficult to see the similarities between the Reichstag fire that brought Hitler to power in Germany, through the subsequent Enabling Act, and 9/11 and the Patriot Act. Both were convenient if probably genuine acts of terrorism by menacing powers which led to authoritarian pieces of legislation superficially designed to eliminate an external threat which reduced civil freedoms at home. In fact, the Nazi's had much more justification-revolution had already occurred in Russia, and the Red Army stood ready to attack at any moment. The threat posed by Bin Laden is inconsequential by comparison.
It is not difficult to see comparisons between the rise to power of the modern Republican party and the Nazis, both in quasi-legal coup d'etats where a minority of the electorate returned each respective organization.
It is not difficult to see how the skillful use of propaganda has been used to pacify each people with selective truth-telling, paranoid nightmare, and appeals to shallow jingoism.
It is not difficult to see the comparisons between the Keynesian militarism of German Nazism and the big state spending of the Republicans on the US military machine.
Nor is it difficult to see how a succession of atrocities were hidden, uncovered and then papered over with a shallow veneer of justification, then subsequently ignored by an indifferent people. Fortunately, the scale of atrocities committed by the US and the Nazi's are not of the same order. But it was not till long after WWII that the horrors of the gas chambers were widely known. It is a good idea to be vigilant against the possibility.
On the most simple level, the Republicans are now seen by almost everyone outside the organization as the party of torture, the party of offensive military action, the party that opposes civil rights, even the party of concentration camps. These are not American values. These are not the practices of civilized, democratic peoples anywhere in the world. They are things we associate with authoritarianism, and, by implication, fascism.

64 comments:

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Sorry, Sue, but anything with Hitler in its title, I just won't read it. Hitler was the most evil man in world history, for Christ! This Walker bozo can be voted out in 4 years and his Republican legislature can be voted out in 2.

Sue said...

Hitler the dictator can be associated with a party in todays society that wants a one party rule, and this is on our horizon.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

That's what they said in 2006 and 2008 when the Democrats swept into power. These things are always cyclical and I wouldn't be surprised if the Republicans themselves took a bath in the next 2-4 years - especially if they continue top overreach.

Sue said...

Will, I'm not calling anyone Hitler, I am posting an article I read today. What I am saying is if we close our eyes to what is an attempt by the Republicans in Wisconsin to begin the process of shutting down the unions in that state, then it will spread all across America by all the newly elected teabagger governors. "You repeat a lie over and over and over again and people will begin to believe it". The right started before Obama was even sworn in saying he was a dictator hell bent on destroying America, Hitler references too. Where is the logic in that? What proof do they have Obama is doing these things? As for the Republicans, they do not hide their plans, they are out in full view for all to see. Walker is only the beginning...

JoeBama "Truth 101" Kelly said...

I think Godwin's Law has expired. Sorry Will but too many people are used to nazi comparisons these days. The right likes to compare anything progressive to socialism. Stupid but it appeals to the bigots, idiots, religious zealots and homphobes that make up the republican base. Why debate merits when you can seal up your voting bloc by calling Obama a nazi or socialist? And think of all the money the RNC saves on researchers and fact checkers.

Sue said...

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/02/21-8

fighting the 5 fascisms in Wisconsin and Ohio.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I sleep well, Sue/Truth. I have consistently defended Mr. Obama on all sorts of ludicrous charges. He's a good/patriotic man whose views are well within the mainstream of American political thought.

Anonymous said...

I'm with Sue. These WI protests are the tipping point. This is something the GOP has been trying to do for years, obtain absolute power and hold onto it. Now, with Citizens United, the Patriot Act, an extreme right wing SCOTUS, things have changed a great deal. We must continue to protest for our rights! We must stand with the Teachers in WI!! If we lose this battle, we will be a full fledged Fascist Country. As it is now, we are barely hanging on to Democracy.

mary b

Dave Dubya said...

Politics of the radical Right is like a religion, or more accurately, a cult. It is the propagation of an ideological, pseudo-Christian, authoritarian belief system. It has nothing to do with democracy, compassion, or the common good, and everything to do with reinforcing the plutocratic power of the economic elite.

Authoritarian leaders spew the dogma which the authoritarian followers accept without question, for they are indoctrinated to believe that “conservatism” (aka interests of the economic elite) is morally superior to the “liberalism” (aka democratic ideals) that they must portray as godless, communistic, and anti-family, and unpatriotic. The radical Right is incapable of accepting any information that contradicts their belief system. They are a cult.

Just look at the forces that are the most rabid anti-union, anti-worker, and anti-bargaining rights, and the lines are clear. Arab Dictators, Fascists, Communists...and Republicans all need to suppress the people in order to hold power. This is nothing less than the struggle between democracy and totalitarianism. Unprovoked war, rigged elections, voter suppression, torture, and indefinite detention without charges or counsel, are all indications that Republicans are fascists. Unfortunately too many corporatist Democrats are collaborating with the growing fascism.

okjimm said...

WILL..... THAT IS TOO SIMPLE A STATEMENT.... if my house burns down, I can rebuild it, too.... but everything I owned was in it and can never be replace.

Walker is trying to fix what isn't really broken. Part of his 'repair' bill would allow him to sell state owned power generating plants WITHOUT getting competitive bids. WITHOUT demonstrating a need. Yes, the man is attempting to get dictatorial power. Sue's analogy is correct and so is the adage.... if you do not study history you will be doomed to repeat it. So, if you hate broccoli, will you refuse to eat because broccoli is on the table? Of course not...

"anything with Hitler in its title, I just won't read it".... we should purge his name from the history books. C'mon...

Sue said...

thanks for reading this post and over looking the Hitler word and seeing the deeper ramifications of Walker and other teabagger govs. destroying the fabric of our existence. Just read, absorb it, we can't stop it if we ignore it and pretend it's not happening. It'll start with unions.

MADISON, Wis. — Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker warned Tuesday that state employees could start receiving layoff notices as early as next week if a bill eliminating most collective bargaining rights isn't passed soon.

Walker said in a statement to The Associated Press that the layoffs wouldn't take effect immediately. He didn't say which workers would be targeted but he has repeatedly warned that up to 1,500 workers could lose their jobs by July if his proposal isn't passed.

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dave Dubya said ~ "Unprovoked war, rigged elections, voter suppression, torture, and indefinite detention without charges or counsel, are all indications that Republicans are fascists."

This statement is completely conjecture on your part, and while it may be your opinion, PROVE any of it. The detention of prisoners in time of war is different from due process afforded American citizens and you know it...or should. Your statement is typical of progressives...all accusation without one shred of proof or truth.

Dave Dubya said...

Linda,
If you paid attention you'd know all of what I say is true.

1. Unprovoked war on Iraq was based on falsehoods.

2. Diebold miscounts were always in favor of the GOP, as promised by their CEO to deliver the election to Bush.

3. The GOP purged voter rolls in Florida and denied many qualified voters their rights. They required multiple ID's for minorites to vote. They allowed fewer voting machines in Democratic leaning precincts with large numbers of voters, forcing them to wait in long lines or go back to work. There are more examples, but what's the point in giving you information when you'd rather feed off the hate and lies from FOX(R), Beck and Limbaugh?

4. Waterboarding was ordered by Bush. He admitted it, you know.

5. Jose Padilla, an American citzen, was thus incarcerated. Many Iraqis and Afghans were locked up on nothing more than the word of tribal adversaries. Look it up.

Then there's the assault on our Bill of Rights called the Patriot Act.

These are called facts, and since they do not conform to your Right Wing cult belief system, you will ignore or deny them. Everything the Right believes in is crafted to benefit the economic elite, deprive the poor, and destroy the middle class.

While you revere the wealthy elite and worship their god Mammon, look at what is happening to our rights and jobs.

Or go back to your self-righteous teabagging.

Sue said...

thanks Dave, thanks for the comments and for setting Linda straight. She's a blind teabagger so it won't do much good though...

okjimm said...

The longer the State Democratic Senators stay out the longer more truth of Scott Walkers Budget REPAIR comes to light..... one provision.....



16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

.... in essence this allows Walker. WITH NO BIDS, to sell State owned power plants at a price his flunkys set.!!!


......Walker first wants to bust the Unions, the opposition Democrats political base...then he wants the power to sell,,,,, WITH no oversight, Wisconsin assets!!!!!


WALKER'S SECOND LARGEST CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTOR WAS THE KOCH BROTHERS'S AMERICA'S SECOND LARGEST CONGLOMERATE...... HEAVILY INVOLVED IN ENERGY PRODUCTION!!! Koch industries have a strong presence in Wisconsin.

//with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state.//


CURRENT STATE LAW PROHIBITS THIS!!!! ANY AMOUNT NO BIDS

okjimm said...

RE Will Harts... opening comment...
//This Walker bozo can be voted out in 4 years and his Republican legislature can be voted out in 2.//

...but in the meantime he call burn down the state... and hold a firesale.

Dave Dubya said...

Sue,
That's ok. It was fun. I love to rant at the reality-challenged servants of Mammonites.

Jeanette said...

Sue, you are right that if we don't win this battle in Wisconsin over the right of Public workers to have collective bargaining, this union busting will spread across the country. AFSCME, The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees was founded in Wisconsin in 1932 and we are fighting to keep it from dying here.

okjimm said...

I am incensed.... what is most disturbing about the clause in the budget allowing him to sell power plants... is that it is 'Without bids and at a price "deemed" fair. It is easy enough to add, in the future,other State Assets such as state Forests and park lands... again, without prior approval,bids atprices set by Whom? the Governor! Now, no matter what his explanation maybe later... such wording is not LEGAL under current law and there is no offering WHY it is needed to change now.

Power plants are extremely complicated...I spent two years working for a client who cleaned power turbines, large ones. Maintained properly they can be operative for 20-50 years. Most plants have between 2-25 turbines. Average cost of one large turbine is between $110MM to $19MM. Changing the lubrication oil on one turbine (depending on kilowatt production capabilities/size) can range from $7k to $35K. These are not toys or used cars.... to be able to sell a WHOLE plant without BIDS is a license to steal.
EGAL under current law and no necessary, damaging and iss not L

Shaw Kenawe said...

okjimm,

I'd like to put up your comments in a blog post. Is that okay with you. Lots of good info there, and you're right in the thick of it all!

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

No, you "c'mon", Okjimm. You're astute enough to realize that it isn't the word, "Hitler", that I'm objecting to here. It is the shameless and divisive comparisons of one's political adversaries to him. Those tactic I will continue to fight FOREVER.......And your metaphor to a burning house is hyperbolic nonsense on steroids. The unions will still be able to bargain on wages, collect union dues and donate as much as they want to their Democratic boot-lickers. These things are decided in the political arena and if your side (I don't have a side, btw - I hate both parties/most politicians) isn't doing as good as you'd like it to, 4 words of advice - have 'em try harder.

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dubya ~ Oh well that changes everything...I see the "truth" now that YOU have set the record straight!!!

My former statement stands. You offered your opinion, not PROOF. Enhanced interrogation has not been judged to be "torture". What happened to Daniel Pearl --THAT was torture!

President Bush acted on intelligence that was supplied at the time, and everyone in Congress believed it to be true, as did the Democrats.

Voting irregularities happen in every election, but that does not prove intentional voter intimidation. If you are so worried about indimidation, perhaps you should investigate the last presidential election and look at the orchestrated voter fraud perpetrated by groups supporting President Obama (you remember, those who admitted on camera to voting four or five times for Obama). Then there was the incident of armed Black Panthers at the Ohio polling place, not exactly business as usual either, but Mr. Holder doesn't seem to see a problem with armed men in military garb telling incoming voters that "a black man was going to be elected today." But that is all acceptable, because it is the "progressive" way to elect a President.

Sue said...

I told ya Dave...teabagger

The Wool Cupboard said...

Sue ~ For your information, I am not a member of the Tea Party, but I would be PROUD to be.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Linda,

What happened to Daniel Pearl was murder. Waterboarding is torture.

And if you admire the TPs, why not join them?

On another note. Sue, This is too funny. I thought you'd get a kick out of reading you-know-who's latest incoherent rant.

I wonder who he's talking about?

Reading it made my day. I was a bit down, but since reading that mish-mash of nonsensical hysterical claptrap, I've had a smile on my face.

We need clowns to keep us laughing.

Anonymous said...

Many of Obama's donations were done on line with those untraceable store bought debit cards. Untraceable just the way they wanted it.
Not to menion how the media influenced his getting elected.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Yeah, anon. The media influenced how the people voted in 2008, just like it influenced how the people voted last November?

B.S. of the first order, anon.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

"All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public service management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the WHOLE PEOPLE (my emphasis), who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided , and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.".....FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT......Gee, I guess that FDR was a Hitler/Mussolini/Mubarak, too.

Sue said...

Shaw, what did that blogger say and do to cause him to write such an incoherent rant?? LOLOL!

Shaw Kenawe said...

WtnpH,

Lots of people are using that FDR quote as ammunition against collective bargaining. But what they fail to recognize is that the separate states that allow for collective bargaining for public sector workers LEGALLY adopted those laws as set out by the requirements of the individual state legislatures. It was the people and their elected representatives WHO PASSED THOSE LAWS, so it follows they did not agree with what FDR said.

Now comes a GOP gov. whose campaign enjoyed huge contributions from parties [KOCH BROTHEERS]with a financial interest in busting unions:

FROM MOTHER JONES: "According to Wisconsin campaign finance filings, Walker's gubernatorial campaign received $43,000 from the Koch Industries PAC during the 2010 election. That donation was his campaign's second-highest, behind $43,125 in contributions from housing and realtor groups in Wisconsin. The Koch's PAC also helped Walker via a familiar and much-used politicial maneuver designed to allow donors to skirt campaign finance limits. The PAC gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association, which in turn spent $65,000 on independent expenditures to support Walker. The RGA also spent a whopping $3.4 million on TV ads and mailers attacking Walker's opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett. Walker ended up beating Barrett by 5 points. The Koch money, no doubt, helped greatly.

The Kochs also assisted Walker's current GOP allies in the fight against the public-sector unions. Last year, Republicans took control of the both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature, which has made Walker's assault on these unions possible. And according to data from the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, the Koch Industries PAC spent $6,500 in support of 16 Wisconsin Republican state legislative candidates, who each won his or her election."


I don't see how the Koch brothers are the "voice of the people" in this issue.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Sue,

"That blogger" can spell and write a literate sentence, and apparently that enrages you-know-who.

The Mole Content has the issue covered. LOL!

Dave Dubya said...

Linda,
My, you are such an ideological true believer. Your misguided faith in radical Right Wing authoritarians rings as pure as a Moonies' faith in Bush family friend Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

Ever hear of the "Downing Street Memos"? Of course you didn't. This is documented proof the British government knew Bush's "intelligence and facts were fixed around policy".

Do you even know who "judged" Bush's torture to be "legal"? I bet not. Was it a judge? No. It was the lawyers working for Bush, who were paid for their opinions to match Bush's.

Did you know we prosecuted for waterboarding because it is called torture under our law and international law? This is not "opinion", it is law.

Your ignorance/indoctrination really shines again on your "armed Black Panthers" hysteria. Bush's Justice Department found no voters were intimidated. Fear-indoctrinated, and possibly racist, white people like you don't even know what state it happened in. You literally have it all wrong. "Armed men in military garb" describes Aryan Nation and militias more than two black guys with a nightstick. They had no firearms, or "military garb" but that doesn't matter to you, does it?

You truly are incapable of accepting information that does not fit your fanatical belief system. You are a cult member and don't even know it.

Don't feel bad. Authoritarian followers much smarter than you are also true believers.

This is how fascism grows, with the indoctrinated true believers following their authoritarian leaders without question.

okjimm said...

Will.... 1) the HITLER word seems to upset you so.... please, try William Shirer, "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" Some of the tactics being employed here in Wisconsin have direct parallels to Nazi techniques. I cannot do your homework for you
2) my analogy is correct.
http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/supps/2004/oct04/intro.htm
further... I will never be able to replace the family heirlooms I have lost. this is personal. It's not money. they are gone. gone.
3) you said nothing of the reference to sell Wisconsin State property without competitive biding or without any pricing constraints. THIS IS NOW ILLEGAL AND THERE HAS BEEN NO REASONING FROM THE REPUBLICANS WHY COMPETITIVE BIDDING HAS BEEN REMOVED!

3) Shaw is correct on Koch Brother involvement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html
Now, while their corporation operates here, they are not Wisconsin residents and Koch Industries are based in KS.
3)'Democratic boot-lickers'????? displaying a little bias, Will?
4) Linda is not worth arguing with. Watching the snow melt on my sidewalk is really more mentally stimulating
5) re my statement on price of turbines pricing should have been'$11MM" not '$110MM' oops.. fat fingers. those prices are primarily for GE Frame 7 unit variants. there are smaller ones, cheaper, but I believe $15MM would be a average price. Of course, that is not pricing for a whole power plant...reservoirs, cooling towers would all be additional.
6) Shaw... feel free to use all you want. The budget line item on sale of power plants was taken directly from the document.

a more complete report on the
Sale of Energy plants is available at http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/

a great, brief synops of one of Wisconsin's best Republicans, Fighting Bob LaFollette is available at
http://www.blackmagpietheory.com/

..it details, briefly, what has been one for the average citizen,,,and why we are fighting.

ps...stop the wars and we can balance all states budgets, just saying.

Dave Dubya said...

Walker is no FDR. At the time Hitler crushed unions he still had not committed his most evil acts. He was merely being a good patriotic, anti-liberal, anti-commie, fuhrer. He was revered by American conservatives at the time.

For a modern perspective:

Why FDR would support the Wisconsin protests

http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/02/18/fdr_and_wisconsin

B.J. said...

Intriguing post, Sue.

There were a multitude of causes and conditions which led to Hitler’s rise to power, beginning with a Weimar Republic absolutely wrecked economically by the Treaty of Versailles following WWI.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I believe every adult in America should read William L. Shirer’s masterpiece, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A Histoory of Nazi Germany.

There is actually a copy of the 1,190-page book online (free), which you can cppy and paste to a Word document and bookmark as you read along:

http://www.gooshbe.de/upload/files/BOOKS/Shirer_William_L_-_The_Rise_And_Fall_Of_The_Third_Reich_-_A_History_Of_Nazi_Germany_-.pdf

Inexpensive copies also are available at a number of online booksellers. (I bought a first edition, brand new, for $14.)

A must read! One cannot come away from it without making comparisons.

BJ

okjimm said...

BJ is absolutely correct..... a must read.

Sue said...

thanks BJ, I'm glad I didn't get slammed for this post. It rings so real to me...

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dubya ~ You know, I really don't care much that you question my intelligence. I did refer to the BPs as intimidating in Ohio instead of PA...my bad. That does not diminish their lawless actions. Remember the outcry when libs accused republicans of having the police "drive by" polling places in some areas "in order to intimidate minority voters?" Libs found that to be intimidating, but two men holding weapons, dressed in military-style apparel is ok...

If you are as bright as you claim to be, then one wonders why you have succumbed to the lure of the cult of social liberalism. It is the very cause of the mayhem and fiscal failure we see in our states today. Liberal entitlement mentality and the worship of socialism as demonstrated by their rabid support of unions (no matter how corrupt or thuggish) has left our country in a fiscal ditch so deep that we may never escape. You think that robbing one segment of society to pay for greed by another is acceptable policy...and no, I'm not referring to the rich taking from the middle class as you and Sue like to accuse. Rather, it is the opposite. Progressive redistribution policies have taken disproportionately from business and the wealthy to fund their anti-capitalistic agenda. The really sad situation is the duping of the working class by liberals. Progressives are the ones who are killing business through unions, and use the union dues to finance their progressive agenda. My husband works for a corporation where he has no choice as to whether or not he wishes to be a member of the union. He has paid thousands of dollars over the years to this union in the form of dues. He has no say in how the dues are used or to which political candidates his dues are contributed. His union supports progressive candidates 100% of the time. I'm sure that you consider that reasonable, don't you? I thought so.

Sue said...

read my new post Linda, this is why we are in a ditch....

Mannington has no union, they got rid of all their loyal workers who made a good living wage and now use temp services to employ usually young uneducated non skilled workers. If there was a union in place people in our area would be doing great, houses bought, taxes paid, benefits for their families etc etc...

B.J. said...

okiimm: I copied 34 comments to Word and read them after I left my comment. It's good to know you appreciate Shirer's work. BJ

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

"Why FDR would support the Wisconsin unions". The frigging guy is dead but some idiotic partisan from Salon knows what he would think if he were alive and kicking today. You simply cannot make this stuff up.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

You know who else revered Hitler back in the day, Dave Dubya? Maybe you've heard of him. His name was Joseph Kennedy Sr.. FRR had to can his sorry ass because he was embarrassing the country.....Again with the frigging/over the top Hitler analogies. Shameless, absolutely shameless.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

No, Okjimm, you're wrong again. The word, Hitler, does NOT bother me. It's the mindless and hyperbolic comparisons to him that bother me. My God, you can (if, that is, you're vicious and desperate enough) find comparisons between anybody and Hitler on one isolated thing. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE FRIGGING HITLER, for Christ. Unbe-frigging-lievable.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And just for the record here, I've already stated that I largely agree in substance with the left on this. This in that a) the unions have conceded on health insurance and pensions and b) the Governor should at least negotiate with them (maybe they can agree on no collective bargaining for a period of time or not have collective bargaining on certain things). My problem here is more with the left's absolute and reckless use of hyperbole and demonization; treating this duly elected Governor as if he were some jack-booted thug who's trying to totally eliminate labor unions. I'm telling you, it's borderline creepy.

Sue said...

Wll, you're not paying attention. Please find a copy or video of Walker talking to Koch.

Dave Dubya said...

Linda,

I did not question your intelligence any more than I claimed to be bright. This is your anger speaking. I’m saying your beliefs are false.

I am glad you see the error of information about which state your fearful image was taken.

However, you are just as much in error with the rest of your "information". It is Right Wing propaganda that is easily disproven through a modicum of curiosity. Look at who is prospering and who is not. Wealth is being re-distributed to the rich, not to the poor. “Robbing one segment of society to pay for greed by another” is exactly what the Right does. Unions are busted and our jobs are off-shored, all while Big Money gets more tax breaks. Can’t you see that? If cutting taxes for the rich, de-regulation, and passing corporate friendly laws are good for the country, then where is the evidence? Shouldn’t we be enjoying a higher standard of living with universal employment by now? They keep taking and we keep losing. It is sad how Americans have been so blinded. Your mind is unfortunately closed to the facts.

You are trapped in a hateful belief system that supports economic injustice, endless war, and plutocracy. It must feel comforting to blame liberals for everything wrong, just like it was for "Good Germans" to blame the Jews. Remember the Nazis accused liberals and unions of being unpatriotic communists, just like the neo-fascists of the American radical Right. Your hatred runs deep. Your embrace of misinformation is a sad symptom of our national decline. You are a "Good Conservative".

Liberal democracy is better than fascist plutocracy by the economic elite. It is as simple as knowing love is better than hate and sharing is better than greed.

Maybe you are a Christian, and if so, read what Jesus said about the rich and taxes. He was more a socialist than a capitalist. Maybe you’ll reconsider your unquestioning support for the worshippers of Mammon in their greedy agenda.

You may continue to side with your Arab Dictators, Fascists, Communists, Nazis...and Republicans in their hatred for workers' rights, equality, civil rights, and disdain for shared economic prosperity. You go right on and oppose the general welfare of We the People that our Constitution mandates our government to promote. I'm glad you and your husband enjoy the benefits of a union. You may just learn first hand what happens when labor rights are denied. I hope for your sake that it doesn't happen that way.

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dubya ~ No one is advocating cutting taxes for the wealthy. They have been taxed at higher levels than the average person for years. I'm sure you know that the top few percent pay 40% of all taxes as it is. The first thing out of the mouths of libs in any crisis, however, is "increase taxes on the rich and on evil corporations!" Unfortunately, the rich and the evil corporations are the only ones who create jobs in a way that grows the economy. President Obama can create government jobs all day long and it will not grow the economy because public sector jobs take money out of the tax pie and don't increase the GDP.

The standard of living would have been higher if we hadn't elected leftist redistributors every two or three cycles. We get set back by larger entitlement spending every twelve years.

You said ~ "It must feel comforting to blame liberals for everything wrong, just like it was for "Good Germans" to blame the Jews."

Oh come on...the Germans hated the Jews because they were Jews. The Germans were intending genocide with regard to the Jewish people...it had nothing to do with what the Jews had done. This was purely evil, ethnic hatred.

You said ~ "Maybe you are a Christian, and if so, read what Jesus said about the rich and taxes. He was more a socialist than a capitalist."

I am a devout Christian, and if you check the Bible, you will find that Jesus had a lot to say (none of it good) about one group of people, and that group was the TAX COLLECTORS...you remember the Pharisees???

What he said about the poor was (and I quote) "the poor you will have with you always," and he also charged Christians to give to the poor (voluntarily-as a means of exhibiting one's love for
God.) Also, the rich in the Bible are not spoken of with contempt, except for the tax collectors who were rich only because they cheated the taxpayers.


You said ~ "You are trapped in a hateful belief system that supports economic injustice, endless war, and plutocracy."


How is supporting economic growth and a healthy business climate so that everyone who needs a job can find one considered supporting economic injustice? Progressives view economic justice as everyone makes the same wage so that no one can achieve riches. Riches are evil to liberals. Progressives encourage class envy.

The endless war comment is just too ridiculous to even address. Mr. Obama hasn't stopped the war yet, has he? That is because the world is dangerous and complicated. Progressives surely realize that some times you have to fight to protect your way of life and your liberty.

Plutocracy? The founders put a lot of checks and balances in the way our representative republic is organized. The House of Representatives (ordinary citizens and everyday people) and the Senate (admittedly more likely to be rich) balance each other with the chance of plutocracy pretty remote. The Tea Party has had some influence in the last election, and I don't think you can call many of them rich! And don't start in on the rubbish about the Koch brothers. What about George Soros? There is an example of money buying influence.

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dubya said ~ " I'm glad you and your husband enjoy the benefits of a union."

Because of the union, whether my husband worked in the company for 2 years or 20 years, there is no advantage for seniority. Because of the union, my husband has lost nearly 3 years' (yes YEARS') earnings due to extended strikes. Because he grew tired of useless strikes and crossed the line to work during the last strike, he was threatened, thrown out of the union, stripped of voting privileges (but they still collected his union dues for three years before they reinstated him), and was treated with contempt by union members for years. I'm proud of the way he stood up for what he believed and had the courage to cross a picket line with angry men taking his picture through his car window and beating the hood of his car with their fists. Where did they stand on his right work without the threat of violence or harm? He doesn't agree with the way unions are managed and the way the unions demand more and more from the company but intervene on behalf of union members who don't work, miss too much time, steal from the company, conduct illicit affairs on the premises during work hours, spend hours texting when they are supposed to be working, show up at work drunk, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and then there is the matter of his modest retirement (won for him by the wonderful union.) When he finally retires, his monthly pension will be REDUCED by the amount of his social security benefit when he begins receiving SS. Even in retirement, the union has made sure that he can never get more than the next guy.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

"It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government."......George Meany - another little Hitler, apparently.

JoeBama "Truth 101" Kelly said...

So you're proud of your suckass scab husband who turned his back on the people that were fighting and sacrificing so they all could get a better wage and benefit packagae Linda?

You thought he shouldn't have to pay for the security and benefits of union membership while receiving them?

Franly, I don't even think for a momemnt you're a real person. You are a right wing caricature that reivents itself to fit every situation so you can spew right wing bullshit.

But calling you out is fun so what the hell.

I feel bad for all the non union workers that don't get pensions. I guess you think they're the real Americans but screw them if they need help like Medicaid because they're poor and only have a Social Security check when they retire.

okjimm said...

Will.... never said Walker was Hitler...said he was using Hitler-like tactics. No exaggeration.

Walker is on tape saying that he thought of bringing in outside people to cause fights in the Capital and blame it on the protesters.
Thank was Hitler's excuse for invading Poland...
//duly elected Governor as if he were some jack-booted thug who's trying to totally eliminate labor unions.//

duh, he is... and is on record saying so.

okjimm said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/scott-walker-unions-wisconsin-national-guard_n_822225.html

''//jackbooted thug//
this was a statement Walker provided BEFORE any protests occurred. Look...I have provided several links as talking points.... Will you have not. Neither has Linda.
I have no idea where you are....but IZ am here...it is happening here...there is a ton of news here... much anecdotal...(like the one of the State "Republican Senator" who admitted she had not read the bill, only the talking points memo)... I only offer that to demonstrate the shit flying here. I will not say that that anecdote is true or false.

but this IS

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116772144.html

Dave Dubya said...

Linda,
Notice that when after I deliver the evidence you demand, you are silent on the points you obviously lost.

“No one is advocating cutting taxes for the wealthy.” I’m amazed by this one. Clearly dishonest or ignorant.

“Unfortunately, the rich and the evil corporations are the only ones who create jobs in a way that grows the economy.” In China, yes. How about here? Hell, no. They love money and couldn't care less about America or Americans. Your kind of people?

So what about in this country?

Who’s getting exponentially richer? Who’s losing jobs? You won’t answer will you? Never mind you obviously don’t care about reality, only your indoctrination.

Liberals have not been in charge of the government. Corporate bought politicians are the majority of both parties. But you don’t know this. Your hatred of liberals is because of what they are, not for what they’ve done, exactly like fascists feel about liberals, and Nazis did about Jews.

You say, “Plutocracy? The founders put a lot of checks and balances in the way our representative republic is organized. The House of Representatives (ordinary citizens and everyday people) and the Senate (admittedly more likely to be rich) balance each other with the chance of plutocracy pretty remote.”

Can you be so naive? Get real, the “Checks” are corporate written and the “balance” is from FOX(R). Just who do you think is really represented? If you think it’s the working class, you are wrong. The economic elite practically own the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Supreme Court. They have all the “free speech” money to buy their plutocracy and We the People have fewer rights and jobs every year. The entire Republican Party works for the Mammonites along with the majority of the Dems. These are the facts.

The Constitution very liberally and literally, mentions the "general welfare" of the people, if you ever cared to read it.

Notice also your pseudo- Christian response that is biblically illiterate. I don’t see any reflection of Jesus in you at all. Jesus did speak of the rich and paying taxes.

Mathew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Mathew 19:24 (King James Version)
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 22:20-22 (King James Version)

And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

You obviously revere mammon and the economic elite. I swear if there were an admitted democracy-hating, racist, Robber Baron, fascist Scrooge here, your opinion would be the same as his.

Once again we must logically conclude your cultish misguided faith in radical Right Wing authoritarians rings as pure as the Moonies' faith in Bush family friend and cult leader Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

I bet you ignore this reality too, being the “Good Conservative”.

Jerry Critter said...

Linda, you are continuing to speak right-wing propaganda. The republicans have continually called for tax cuts for the rich and for corporations. And the big corporations and the wealthy do not create most of the jobs in the US. They are created by small businesses, most of which make less than $250,000 per year. The wealthy and big corporations are the ones who are sending our jobs overseas.

Sue said...

thanks guys for spreading some truth around. I warned ya, Linda is a teabagger-type(since she did not formally join she says:-). Your arguments are outstanding! BRAVO!

The Wool Cupboard said...

Dubya and Jerry ~ Republicans are not calling for tax cuts for the rich. I do think that tax cuts for business would help to stimulate the economy by encouraging job creation. I'm not sure, however, that business people would have enough confidence in Obama's fiscal policies to even think about job creation. They have the whole health care reform to deal with, you know. It's hard to plan for a business when you have the anvil of increased costs for employee health care ready to drop on your head...except, of course, for those companies (financial donors) selected by President Obama for exemption from mandates with which everyone else must comply.

I'm not so naive as to deny that there are those on both sides who are only in office for the money. If they were not on the take when they went to DC, chances are that they will be faced with the temptation to take care of their own "needs" first.

I am talking about the ideology of the two parties. Republicans (for the most part) are against the "nanny state" and Democrats (for the most part) are really into entitlements and government regulation of every area of private life.

Conservatives think that people should not have the opportunities to succeed by self-reliance and their own motivation taken from them by a bloated, overbearing, over taxing, over regulating, overseer government. Democrats seem to never meet a tax or a regulation or an entitlement that they don't like.

Dubya said ~ "you obviously don’t care about reality, only your indoctrination." The same could be said of you. We certainly wholeheartedly support our views, or we would not have such views.

Mathew 6:24
"Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Absolutely. If your first love is love of money, then there is no room for love of God. I don't think that God meant here that we should be unwise stewards of the money that we have. Remember the parable of the talents? The servants who received praise from their masters were the ones who wisely invested their master's money and made a healthy profit for him. The servant who was chastised was the one who did not wisely invest his master's money, but rather buried it and kept it "safe" for him. (I'm sorry that I don't have chapter and verses for the parable, but I am away from home and my Bible.)

Mathew 19:24 (King James Version)
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Many people think this means that God despises the rich. That would contradict the parable of which I just spoke, wouldn't it? The reason the Lord said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven is that people who are rich tend to put their trust in their riches rather than in God. He did not say it is impossible, but it is not easy. God would prefer that our faith be placed in Him rather than in money.

Matthew 22: 20 - 22
"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Yes, God does expect us to obey the law and to pay our taxes...a concept lost on several politicians of late. I'm not saying that we should not pay our taxes, but I think that God would expect those in government to try their best to legislate honestly and fairly...not to be oppressive as were the tax collectors of the New Testament.

Dubya said ~ "I bet you ignore this reality too, being the “Good Conservative”.

I try to be a good conservative, and I'm sure that you really believe in redistribution and social liberalism. Why does that automatically make me wrong and you in the right? Just because you believe it to be so does not mean that I must be convinced of your accurate vision of reality.

I thank you for not lapsing into name-calling. I have enjoyed reading your comments, even though I respectfully disagree with you.

Dave Dubya said...

Linda,
Thank you for your opinions, as misrepresentative, misinformed, and inaccurate as many may be. Beliefs are not the same as truth.

I'm glad you understand the corruptibility of our politicians, even if you don't see how pervasive our government is influenced by Big Money.

If "promote the general welfare" means "nanny state", then Democrats are generally the party of the Constitution. Please read it.

I've shared true and verifiable information, and hope I've given you something to think about.

Jerry Critter said...

Linda,
The republicans held the country hostage in an attempt, a successful attempt, to extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich.

If big business was really concerned about health care costs, they would push for a public option. Hell, they would push for a single payer, universal government plan. That would remove all costs of health care from their bottom line. They would not even have to worry about health care. No, they want health care just the way it is.

okjimm said...

//I do think that tax cuts for business would help to stimulate the economy by encouraging job creation.//

WE HAVE HAD 8 YEARS OF TAX CUTS FOR BUSINESS/WALL ST.... THAT'S WHY THE ECONOMY IS SO FUCKED UP!!!!

Sue said...

jimm the blind and delusional will NEVER EVER sway from their God Raygun when it comes to his ruination of our country's economy. Tricklefuckindown!!!

Jerry Critter said...

Cutting taxes for businesses increases business profits. Increasing demand for business products increases jobs. Profits and demand are two very different things.

Profits do not generate jobs.

Demand generates jobs.

Anonymous said...

Businesses can only gain revenue by selling things that people want; and only make a profit if they sell these things for more than they cost to produce. In the process they give employment to people who prefer that job to any other they can find. Therefore, profit-making firms create wealth for their customers, owners, and employees. They take wealth from no one. So why, pray, do liberals have such a problem with capitalism??

Anonymous said...

BTW - I LOVE LINDA!!

Dave Dubya said...

Anonymous,
Only Right Wingers say liberals have a problem with capitalism. We don't. We work for capitalists. We buy from capitalists, and we even ARE capitalists.

What we oppose is unregulated immoral, predatory, politician-buying, government-corrupting, democracy-killing corporatocracy.

You seem totally oblivious to the fact that employees and customers contribute to creating that wealth. They are getting poorer and poorer while the economic elite have their bought and paid for politicians de-regulate and legislate the re-distribution of wealth up to them.

And just, pray tell, how do the Wall Street banks create wealth, or goods, or anything at all, for anyone but themselves?? If you don't see vast re-distribution of wealth to the banksters, in return for nothing, you are not paying attention and do not understand the word corporatocracy.