My brother was just here, a heated argument ensued, he tells me this is not a right or left issue but it is "End Times" and I better get out my Bible and read the message. He told me the exact number of prophesies and the ones that have been fulfilled, he says we are nearing the fulfilling of all which will then bring on the rapture. SO... my friends... all this world wide mess going on, the US turning into a bankrupt socialistic country, which BTW he says is the fault of both parties, is this the actual word and prophesy of God, or is it nonsense? He says God put Barack Obama in power, all that is happening with the jobs leaving, the middleclass dying, the country going to hell in a handbasket are because of the policies put in place since the election of Obama. He says we have turned our backs on God, this is the problem. He also mention Chavez, Venezuela, Soviet Union and socialism, Medicare, welfare....yada yada yada
Give me your truth. Tell me why I should be looking to the skies for signs or just looking at the blue sky and puffy white clouds....
I'm taking off moderation so the comments can flow. But a message to trolls including lisa and pals, your comments will be deleted so don't bother.
3 hours ago
129 comments:
As I have commented before, maybe even here. I wish the hell he would rapture away...maybe then the rest of us could get on with. My car will remain manned!
Your brother says, "God put Barack Obama in power". Therefore he must be doing god's work, so rather than complaining about what is going on and trying to obstruct his program, the religious fanatics should be out there supporting it with all their hearts and souls.
Why else did god put Obama in power?
hey guys you are not answering my question. Are these prophesies real and are they coming true?
I was just listening to a guy speak on Martin Luther King, he said we should not take the day off but instead use it to come together in our communites and help one another. Brother Bud says its the communities and churches that should help the poor, not the government. Well why then do the righties make fun of Obama's past as a community organizer?? Hypocrites...
First off,let me state that we cannot have an inteligent conversation on this subject if we're gonna debate whether or not there is a God or Jesus.This is not the subject.So in order to carry on,we must concur that God is real.Further more,one has to separate one's secular view from the christian view when discussing the bible.I am first and foremost a christian.Christianity is not a religion,it's a way of life,living life in Christ and with Christ.ALL OF MY BELIEFS COME FROM STUDYING THE BIBLE.If you have not read the bible then don't bother having a discussion on it.that would be like me discussing the melecular structure of water with a scientist,I cannot do that.So don't try to explain Gods word if you haven't read it.
I am with jadedj, how long do we have to wait for this Rapture and if we ask God nicely will he take them early?
Haha..Bud, so we are not allowed, by you, to discuss the Bible unless we have read it, which I have. And we are not allowed to have an "intelligent" discussion unless we agree that God is real, which I don't. So basically you are telling us to...shut up?
The Bible is a compilation of short parables that someone decided they would base a religion on. (No different from Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics..just older) The Bible was not written for our age. The prophesies were written for the life span of the writer. I see in my crystal ball that the earth will be a barren waist land in 2000 years, but if you follow me I will lead you out of the darkness into the land of Mary's World and all will be at peace...for the low, low price of $199.99 a month! Awomen!
And another thing, I would love to sit down with a scientist and discuss the molecular structure of water...imagine all I could learn!
Sue, I will answer your questions ("Are these prophesies real and are they coming true?)
No and no.
The molecular structure of water? Bud, surely you learned that in grade school and have just forgotten it.
Two hydrongen atoms, one oxygen atom.
"Christianity is not a religion,it's a way of life."
No. It's a religion that some people follow and incorporate into their way of life.
As for your question, Sue. No. The End Times are NOT coming. Religious people have been predicting them for thousands of years.
Some day, billions of years from now, the sun will expand into a red giant and swallow our solar system. That will be the "End Times" for our planet. Unless some other unforeseen astronomical cataclysm, like a gigantic asteroid hitting the Earth, occurs.
Poo-Tee-Weet!
Mary,sorry dear but you have exposed yourself as a fraud.for if you would have read the bible you would know that it is the inspired word of God,and yes Jesus spoke in parables,but the bible is Gods plan for mans redemption through the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus.Without the cross we are seperated from GOD,and will not share in eternal life with him.But if you read 1corinthians 15:2-4 and believe that you will avoid death and have eternal life in heaven.
Jerry,1st prophecy,Gen.3:15 And God said,I will put enmity between thee (satan)and the woman(Mary),and between thy seed and her see;it shall bruise thy(satan)head.and thou shalt bruise his heel(Jesus).(note,this was written 5000 yrs before christ was born) Fulfilled,Gal.4:4,But when the fullness of time was come,God sent forth his Son(Jesus),made of a woman,made under law. i have a couple hundred more Jerry if your interested.
Bud: I think it's quite unfair to tell people how they SHOULD think, feel and worship. I respect your right to worship and I would appreciate you respecting mine not to.
To answer your question, Sue, no, I don't think "God" is going to destroy the earth or man-kind. WE are going to destroy ourselves.
I do agree that it's not a Right or Left issue, though, because it's been a combination of both that got us here, so it's a PEOPLE issue.
Bud,
Your belief that it is true does not make it so.
I said I love my blog friends and all the blogs on my list, so smart!! Myhusband said, "yea but tell your blog friends they are the reason you neglect us(him and mom!) LMFAO!!!!
Shaw,Acts:11-26,And when he(Barnabus)had found him(Paul),he brought him unto Antioch.And it came to pass,that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church,and taught much people.Andthe discipleswere called christians first in Antioch.You see Shaw,followers of Christ are called christians.The greek word is pronounced,khris-tee-an-os',follower of christ is the greek definition.it's NOT a religion
Pamela,i'm not telling you anything.I said that if you want to discuss God and the bible you have to have the knowledge that God has provided us in his word(the bible).By the way,my water molecule analogy was not good.Better said is,one can't discuss Tolstoy or Shakespear if one has not studied them.
In what way am I a fraud, Bob? I don't believe that the Bible is anything but a BOOK. I don't believe there is a god so how could I believe it was inspired by "him". You can twist and turn the "prophecies" in the Bible any way you want, but I just don't believe they are real.
I live my life here on earth to the best of my ability. I try to help, not hurt. I empathize and sympathizes with those around me, I try to understand why they are who they are. I don't give my "sins" (or as I like to call them mistakes I have made in my life.) to god, I live with them because I committed them.
What I do know Bob, is that you believe, and I respect that. You can find ways in that book that will give your life meaning. You can explain easy and hard times with scripture and prophecies and that is OK with me. I won't call you a Fraud and will not tell you that you do not have the right to your belief because it doesn't agree with mine. I understand that human nature is to find meaning in this chaos we call life, I just don't need that crutch anymore, and that should also be OK.
Bud,
You have the right to define yourself as you wish. No prob.
But the accepted standardized dictionary definition of a Christian is this:
Definition of CHRISTIAN
1a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
It good that you have something in your life that is so meaningful to you.
Other people have other ways of finding meaning in their lives that does not include religious beliefs.
Whatever works for you or anyone else is great, so long as no one tries to force their beliefs on me.
Your a fraud Mary because you said you have read the bible,and you know thats not true Mary.It's one thing to read it but anther to study it.
End Times????? gees, No..... I am looking forward to the End Times of my cold. It's like having Ann Coulter and Rachael Maddow stuffed up my nose together. How's that for imagery.
too sick to be serious
jimm
Hear, hear Maryb...and Jerry.
Sue, NO. No more accurate and true than talking snakes and parting of waters.
Bud, if it is intelligent discussion you are interested in, try reading, "Christianity - The First Three Thousand Years", by Diarmaid MacCulloch...if you dare.
A current study finds that most Christians know LESS about the bible than atheists and agnostics, now that's truth!
It also amazes me(not really) that Christianity is being dropped like a bad habit and losing more followers by the day while Agnostics, Atheists and even Buddhists are on the high rise.
Most interesting.
I wonder which version of the Bible Bud believes in. Aren't there about a hundred?
Well I guess you know what I do there Bud. Seriously, you just said "read the Bible" you didn't say we had to be biblical scholars to have a discussion. Just because I didn't fall on my knees and repent by evil ways after reading it, doesn't me I didn't read it. You have called me a fraud and a liar...may your god bless you Bud, but from me you will get a chuckle because you can't make me hate you, I don't even know you
.
Speaking of reading the bible, my parents gave me this pretty little white bible for my confirmation...and guess what, in the new testament the books of Matthew, Mark and part of John were missing. I know I should have contacted the publishers, but I had one of those little New Testament books they hand out, so I was able to fill in with that. Kinda funny when a bible can't even be published correctly.
ALL OF MY BELIEFS COME FROM STUDYING THE BIBLE.If you have not read the bible then don't bother having a discussion on it.
Bud: Those sentences are from your comment. You say you “study” the bible but that for us to have a conversation with you we must have “read” the bible, not “studied” it.
It seems to me that for a Christian, you are acting very rigid, Bud. First by telling us that we must read and/or study a book that we don’t necessarily believe in or may not even want to read (I’ve read it by the way and that’s why I’m a non-believer). Secondly, you call someone that you don’t even know, a fraud. A true Christian doesn’t behave in such a manner, or does your particular religion not preach “Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35)
It seems to me, Bud, that it’s the Atheists in this forum who are open and willing to debate, but you, the Christian, only wants dialogue if it pertains to YOUR beliefs. That’s unfair. Dialogue and discussion are a two-way street and can be civil if all participants are willing to be open and respectful.
Sue,
Sorry to be off topic, but the email I sent you bounced back from the "mail demon."
you've been maintaining for a long time that "Lisa" is really "the malcontent."
Take a look at
this to see that I think you've been correct all along!
"Bud: Those sentences are from your comment. You say you “study” the bible but that for us to have a conversation with you we must have “read” the bible, not “studied” it."
Pamela, I'm glad you brought that up. Churches should be labeled like doctor's and lawyer's offices as "practices". God knows they sure as hell ain't a "perfect".
Just so everyone understand "Lisa," know that she has no problem with people who steal other people's ideas and words, just so long as they agree with her.
These are the kinds of people who rail at the liberals and at President Obama for "destroying" the country, yet to them, being deceitful and cheating is A-OK, so long as the deceivers and cheaters agree with them.
Nice values you got there, Lisa/the malcontent.
Oh that's right, beck just ended his show. More rants to plaigerize.
very interesting indeed Shaw! And look who is also on her bloglist, common sense duh!! Another Mal! Poor deluded Tammy the Mormon has gotten herself mixed up with those frauds and she acts and talks just like them!
My brother fears for my salvation, He has good intentions so don't be too hard on him. He truly believes we are living in end times and he wants me raptured with him and the rest of the family. I remember my dad telling us the same thing when I was 11, I am 55....how many more years do we have to wait Bud?
Lisa = "There are 2 types ofliberals -- the deceivers and the deceived
Every time liberals get on their high horse, they get bucked off
Liberal programs are so wonderful that they have to be forced on people"
And there is one trait all conservatives have in common...they all love platitudes.
I asked lisa not to come here and comment, she can't help herself. I can't believe she is that stupid to keep coming back where she is not wanted.
Sorry, Sue. It's my fault, and I apologize.
I couldn't reach you by email, so I brought the off-topic subject into your post.
I think Lisa/mal came here to defend the indefensible: excusing cheaters and deceivers, as long as they agree with her/his ideology.
No Shaw she's been here, I've been deleting long before that email.
I just left them a comment, I said Mal asked Fran to bring her ID next time she visits him, so I guess that means he needs time to make up her profile and blog since she is Brand New!! LOLOL
I'd chime in but because I'm a member of the Great Apostate Church (according to Reverend John Hagee) anything I could say might be dangerous to one's soul.
Besides....the world's going to end in 2012 anyway, so why get in a huff?
"I know, I know....the History Chan-nel told me so".
Hugh don't watch that crap! ;-)
Even Bud backtracked on his 2012 end times belief... :-)
hey where's Linda and Infidel, I was hoping for a debate between them!
Sue, the reason why she keeps coming back is that she is exploring that terrorist instinct that some short tempered conservatives have and express in certain ways. Her choice is cyber harassment.
yes! A cyber harasser, that's it C!
Sue ~ If you want real answers, email me. I will not trivialize as serious a subject as this by opening it up to pointless ridicule by your commenters.
Sue, a DENSE, cyber harasser.
Yep,dense.
Lisa says "they" (meaning liberals) can't debate without ridicule.
This is Lisa's incisive comment from one of her favorite blogs:
Lisa said...
"The left really are the enemies of this country and the good news is the more they flap their slanderous jaws the more they did[sic] the hole deeper."
So Lisa, talk to us about how liberals are "the enemies of this country..."
Nice rhetoric, and especially sensitive after the killings in Tucson.
Just what we need. More gasoline to throw on the hate fires.
When you have something interesting to say and when you can be honest, and not praise cheats and deceivers, maybe we'll listen to you.
Right now, you have no credibility whatsoever in anything you have to say about liberals. Okay?
An interesting survey last Sept. shows that aetheists and agnostics know more about religion than practioners do.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious
There have been some really good discussions on the Bible, the King James version in particular, and what's really said or not said on NPR. Just go there and enter "Bible" in the search box.
yikes Shaw, NO, don't feed the troll!
I am still waiting for the trolls (that is plural) to get back to me regards the book I recommended they read. I have a feeling, it's not going to happen.
I recommend "The Truth Project", which is an 8 DVD series hosted by Dr. Del Tackett. It is excellent, thought provoking, and instructive...IMHO.
I suggest our right leaning friends like Bible Bud reread The Book of Numbers.
Not that it will add any insite here. It's just a long and brutally mind numbimgly boring book I think they should read as punishment.
On to the end times:
Revelation gives us John's writings as he envisioned them. Frankly, the movie is much better than the book. The Four Horsemen make cool artwork. As does the seven headed beast that represented empires fallen, current and yet to come. Jimmy Swaggert had one of the heads looking like a triceratops. That can only mean dinosaurs will reappear at the end times to gore or eat sinners. The righteous will ride triceratopses into Jerusalem on streets paved with palm branches that the triceratopses will blasphemously, yet comically, eat on the way to the Temple on the Mount where 144,000 Jews who were deemed worthy of saving, the rest were lost to The Rapture, will be given Diplodicuses to ride around during the thousand years of peace.
I can go on if you all are interested in being saved. If not then to hell with you sinners and non believers.
Meaning no offence, but I'd rather hear about the Bible from someone not connected to Focus on the Family, who got a BA in computer science and took one year of graduate courses in artificial intelligence. Much prefer a biblical scholar with a PhD who studied all religions.
So Truth, after the rapture comes the thousand years of peace? This is where all those who were raptured come back to earth and live with Jesus, and the sinners will be where, in hell?
Tell me oh spiritual one, do you believe end times are nigh?
Leslie do you believe in end times?
Does anyone think this is a too personal question? I've talked about this before and I truly am curious as to what my friends beliefs are. Ever since childhood I have been one of those who has doubts, even with a dad who force fed us the bible.
I believe I was clear in my previous comment Sue. If you and Leslie choose not to believe that is between you and The Almighty. As for me, I alrady have my triceratops saddle ordered so it will be ready by 2012.
Yes I belive in God. I also believe if yo take everything Glen Beck says and is written in The Bible literally you are a damn fool.
I don't know how to NOT believe there is a God, but how then can you not believe the bible and the book of Revelation? See I told you I was living a confused life...
I just talked to God. He said he didn't think this shit was funny.
I don't need everyone to believe me, 12 is all I'll need...for now.
The existence of god and the truth of the bible are two somewhat separate subjects, in that, the existence of god does not depend, at all, on the truth of the bible.
In other words, it is possible to believe in the existence of god and think that the bible is a pile of horse pucky.
I was gonna say kind of what Jerry said.
A committee decided what was going to be in The Bible 1800 years ago. In the end about all we can trust is Love thy neighbor as thyself and love God above all else.
And of course read Helloooo......Mr. President. And of course Democracy Central of which I am now a feature writer.
God bless you and thanks for allowing the shameless plug ala our friend Whirling Dervish Sue.
C, I used to talk to God all the time, infact there are times I believe I had prayers answered.
Jerry thats interesting, I never thought of that. Ya know what really gives me anxiety? This eternal life talk, have you ever sat and thought about living for eternity? How could you not get bored?? See, it feels scary huh??
Truth you lost me on the whirling dervish plug...
Sue said... Truth you lost me on the whirling dervish plug...
Me too. But I'm not against anyone plugging my blog, although I know Truth hasn't been there for awhile nor has Sue, upon whom I used to be able to rely on to show up shortly after I posted something new.
I'm sorry w, I feel like a total slacker since Christmas when mom moved in. I've just recently gotten back in the swing of things and I promise I will be by to visit you. For now thehusband is pissed and neglected, the computer is needing defragged (thanks C for teaching me how to do that!) and I need to go to bed, it's 12:45...
What gets me is that there are people that believe that God has a plan AND that we have free will.
Sorry, you don't get your cake and eat it too. Thus, the theodicy problem.
Back to my original question.
If god put Barack Obama in power (as Sue's brother said), shouldn't all religious fanatics be supporting Obama with all their hearts and souls?
Jerry don't they think that Obama is the anti-Christ who will usher in the Rapture? Him being elected President is just fulfilling their prophecy...I could be wrong, because I am old and I forget things, but wasn't that what the whole "The One" meme going on in '08 was all about? I should google before I post, but I am tired too and so off to the basement I go...where I sleep. (To bad Bud left, he might like to know I sleep a little closer to hell..lol) ;)
OH and Sue, I used to pray and think my prayers were answered too(maybe they were?), but since I gave that up for lent several years ago, life hasn't changed much in that area. My husband used to literally stand back when I would go on one of my "There is no God" rants so he wouldn't be caught by the hand of God when it came down to crush me.
With that Good Night and Good Dreams to you all!
It's all bullshit Sue.
In some countries millions of children crawl through piles of garbage looking for things to trade for food, and are forced to drink from water all know to be polluted. There is no school, no Friday Night Football, no Father Christmas coming if they've been good. And it's been this way for decades, while a lot of us live it up with our grocery bills and trips to the beach.
Why oh why are the End Times coming only when things get a little tight in America (and not for the first time)?
Jerry is absolutely right: "The existence of god and the truth of the bible are two somewhat separate subjects . . .
I love the St. James version of the Bible for the language. It is a beautiful piece of literature. The newer versions are pedestrian. There's some truth and a lot of hocus-pocus in both. And like all literature, five people have five different interpretations.
Maybe because it's comforting, I choose to believe in the existence of a higher power but I'm not too crazy about organized religion, especially these days. I certainly have no use for Bible thumpers; my Methodist preacher cousin advised me against them. Hypocrites and untrustworthy he said. Since he was a Biblical scholar (educated), I'll take his word for it.
End of the world theories have been bouncing around since the beginning of time. We're still here.
I have a lnack for remembering trivia and nuances that will never do me any good WD and Sue.
Reread WD's comments here and elsewhere and you will understand.
No offense meant WD. I think you're well informed, smart and a great blogger.
tnlib ~ A string of secular degrees doeth not a Christian make. Your arrogant dismissive attitude toward someone about whom you know only what you have "Googled" is typical of you.
Cover your nose when you go out in the rain...you may drown.
Magpie, the believers will tell you the poverty and all that goes with it in those third world countries is because they turned from God, or never had God. Isn't it funny how this rapture is supposed to lift up the believers and yet some countries never experienced a bible so what happens to them?? It's not their fault if they haven't had God or the bible teachings in their poverty stricken lives. oh wait, that's where missionaries come in, they are the messengers.
John 14:6 (King James Version)
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
There is only one Truth, by nature of the definition. God provided the source for you to know Him and to guide you how to find your way to Him, but many dismiss the source as fairytales. What else, then is there? Your ideas? Your opinions? Your supposition? Others' opinions? Your college religion professor's "educated guess"? A consensus?
We make it so hard for ourselves, don't we?
Jerry, I think the believers think Obama was chosen for sinister reasons, not to bring about a love fest, LOL. Yes, God can be mischievous..
Linda,
"We make it so hard for ourselves, don't we?"
Tell me how the kid in this picture:
http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/ultimate_in_unfair.htm
made it hard for him or herself.
Where was your tyranical cosmic imaginary friend then?
Actually just STFU.
hey where's Linda and Infidel,
Well, since you asked.....
No, of course there is no connection between the prophecies of the Bible and anything that is happening today. The Bible was written by people who could not possibly have known anything about what would happen in our time which, from their point of view, lay in the distant future.
The Bible contains a large number of rather nebulous prophecies, and at any given time there are a large number of events going on in the world. Inevitably, one can find a few events which one can depict as being similar to some of the prophecies, if one is determined to force that interpretation upon reality. As Shaw notes in one comment above, people have been seeing signs of the End Times for centuries; any era, not just our own, contains events which can be shoehorned into fitting this or that Bible prophecy if one chooses. Many movements and cults predicting the imminent end of the world have appeared over the centuries. The world goes on.
Those palm-munching triceratopses sound kind of cool, though.
CS you are a follower of the fake lisa and the deceitful Mal, so why should I be friends with you? I have no clue from your "blog" you are who you say you are. I can only assume you are like lisa and just want to take over my comments. Please don't respond to this comment.
thanks Infidel, I've been waiting for your comment.
LINDA: "There is only one Truth, by nature of the definition. God provided the source for you to know Him and to guide you how to find your way to Him, but many dismiss the source as fairytales."
(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number.
1.Christianity: 2.1 billion
2.Islam: 1.5 billion
3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4.Hinduism: 900 million
5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6.Buddhism: 376 million
7.primal-indigenous: 300 million
8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9.Sikhism: 23 million
10.Juche: 19 million
SOURCE
Christianity and Islam are the two leading religions in the world in terms of numbers of adherents (numbers are approximate). And in third place and gaining every year?
Secular, agnosticism, atheism, nonbelievers.
LINDA: "What else, then is there?"
Lots. See above.
LINDA: "Your ideas? Your opinions? Your supposition? Others' opinions? Your college religion professor's "educated guess"? A consensus?"
Yes, Linda, our ideas, opinions, and our education, which enlightens and informs. We can intellectually sort things out for ourselves after informing ourselves and looking at reality, not versus that were written in the Bronze Age, however beautiful and sometimes inspiring they are.
There is no ONE RELIGIOUS TRUTH.
You and others, of course, can hang onto that idea, but there's nothing in our human history that supports it. Again, see the numbers above.
Many billions of humans on this planet differ with what you believe is " THE TRUTH".
You are on dangerous grounds when you allow Truth to be what you believe. Belief and truth can be two different things. When the bible was originally written, it was common belief that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it.
No matter how strong and widespread those beliefs were (and disagreeing could get you killed), we now know they were wrong.
So it is with religion. They all cannot be correct.
Jerry ~ Isaiah 40:22
"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in"
The Bible gave the truth. Had men read the Word of God, they would have known that the earth is a circle. TRUTH was there all along whether they believed it or not.
Linda,
The earth is not a circle. If it were, it would be flat. The earth is like a ball. It is a sphere.
Jerry you are GOOD...
magpie ~ When I said we make it hard for ourselves, you know that I was referring to the fact that God provided the "roadmap" to Heaven, but we try to do everything our own way. I was not referring to those who suffer with illness or disease...there is no comparison to be made.
The fact that people suffer does not indicate that the person who suffers has done something wrong. Suffering may come from many sources...sin of man (the disobedience of Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge brought sin into the world and it still causes anguish. Sometimes people suffer so that they will come to trust God. Some suffer because of the sin of others (no man is an island) and sin causes consequences whether it be our own sin or that of others around us. Some suffering happens just because of the characteristics of nature such as floods, storms, etc. Some suffer their whole lives only to come to the conclusion that the suffering made them stronger and more compassionate and able to help others who suffer. I suggest Job Chapter 1 if you want to read a Biblical example of suffering and its results.
You want my "truth", Sue? Alright, I'll give it to you. My truth is me going into a time machine and ending up back in 1953. It then proceeds with me getting a private dance from Ann Miller and Cyd Charisse.....and it ends, well, I'm pretty sure that you know how it ends.
From your post, a few examples of what I was talking about:
all this world wide mess going on,
The world is more peaceful and prosperous than ever before in its history -- per-capita rates of violence in medieval times, and even more so in the earlier hunter-gatherer societies, far exceeded per-capita levels of violence today, even taking phenomena like World War II into account. Famine and disease are rarer than at any time before the mid-twentieth century. The world is in less of a "mess" now than ever before.
the US turning into a bankrupt socialistic country,
Obama has reduced the deficit and the US is still the least socialist country in the developed world.
is happening with the jobs leaving, the middleclass dying,
Unemployment is nothing like as bad as it was in the Great Depression. The middle class is not dying. For most of the last 2,000 years there was nothing we would recognize as middle class in the first place, anywhere in the world.
the country going to hell in a handbasket
Compared to what? The most terrible moral evils in US history were slavery and the Indian genocide, both now more than a century in the past. In 1861-1865 about 650,000 Americans -- one out of every fifty Americans at that time -- died violent deaths at the hands of other Americans, and one-third of the country was laid in ruins. That was America going to hell. What we are going through now doesn't come even close.
He also mention Chavez, Venezuela, Soviet Union,
The Soviet Union disappeared twenty years ago.
So what is it about our time that is so uniquely terrible that it implies the imminent end of the word?
Fun fact: King James I of England, who authorized the still-popular King James Bible translation, was gay. Curious that the fundies' rabid deity would have chosen such a sinner as the instrument to bring his word to our language.
Shaw said ~ "There is no ONE RELIGIOUS TRUTH.
You and others, of course, can hang onto that idea, but there's nothing in our human history that supports it. Again, see the numbers above.
Many billions of humans on this planet differ with what you believe is " THE TRUTH"."
I have to respectfully disagree with you. There really can be only one TRUTH. There may be many BELIEFS in the world, but there literally can be only one right path to finding God. Truth is truth whether everyone believes it or no one believes it.
Upon what basis do you reject the concept of God? Your mind cannot grasp it, so it can't be true? Many "educated" people ridicule the idea of a Creator, so it can't possibly be accurate? Who is it that you trust to be correct? If your eternal life in Heaven is on the line, whom do you trust to tell you the right answers? There has to be one source for the truth because not all pathways can be right...they are too diverse and opposite in direction.
Are you suggesting that all the world religions are right and that more than one God created parts of the earth and made different spiritual laws for some people and no laws at all for others? Some people are going to Heaven by killing some infidel while others are going there because they have received God's Son as Saviour? There must be one simple plan for all mankind, and billions of people are convinced that the Bible is the answer to finding that path. Man is free, of course, to believe and accept or to not accept God's plan for his eternal life.
There are hundreds of religions in the world, mostly believing things which are completely incompatible with each other, mostly claiming to be the one true religion and denouncing all the others as false. Even major religions are not homogenous but split into sects with conflicting beliefs. Every holy book and myth is riddled with demonstrably-false statements about the world which reflect the ignorance of people at the time they were composed. Arguing about whether the Bible or the Koran (or whatever) is the word of God is pretty much like arguing about whether Star Wars or Star Trek is cooler.
The whole picture looks exactly as one would expect it to look if the Earth was formed and life developed entirely through natural processes, and many groups of early humans in various parts of the world wrote down their fumbling superstitious attempts to explain a universe about which they knew and understood almost nothing.
Linda said, "Your arrogant dismissive attitude toward someone about whom you know only what you have "Googled" is typical of you."
Actually I'm very familiar with the man. Only ignorant people call those who are educated "elitist."
"Cover your nose when you go out in the rain...you may drown."
My, my - pretty catty for a professed Christian. I thought you people believed in turning the other cheek. Oh, I see. You have - just not the one on your face.
Linda,
You're talking to the wrong person.
I do not believe in sky gods.
But I don't care if you or anyone else does.
I believe this:
I was born; I do the best I can to live as good a life as I am able to without doing harm to others; I will die. The End.
Poo-Tee-Weet!
tnlib ~ You are an education snob, whether you believe it or not. It oozes from your every comment.
The words that I used to describe your attitude are (I'm sorry to say) the image that you evoke. Why else would you have mentioned Del Tackett's "lack of education" as one of the reasons that you dismissed him? One can learn of the attributes of God through living close to Him, and Del Tackett certainly does that. There is more than one kind of "study". You seem to value only the kind obtained from listening to the robed PHD from Harvard.
I'm sorry that you felt that I was being "catty." I felt that I was being honest.
Shaw said ~ "I believe this:
I was born; I do the best I can to live as good a life as I am able to without doing harm to others; I will die. The End."
I guess only death will reveal if that was enough. The problem is...then it is too late.
Linda
"The fact that people suffer does not indicate that the person who suffers has done something wrong."
A local pastor attributes the current flooding in out part of the world (Australia) to our foreign minister calling for a halt to the construction of Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank - even though flooding is also concurrently happening (with far greater loss of life) in other parts of the world. He also attributes the bushfires (a reoccurring phenomenon) in 2009 to God's wrath at legalising abortion.
Now this dickhead might not speak for you or the rest of your cult... but it is a typical example of what passes for religious logic regarding suffering.
"Upon what basis do you reject the concept of God?"
On the basis it makes no sense, and that I have no need of a God.
"Your mind cannot grasp it, so it can't be true?"
That my mind cannot grasp it does not make it true.
"if your eternal life in Heaven is on the line..."
Ah... finally we come to the threats for those unwilling to grovel to imaginary Abrahamic phantasms. And so we come back to what your cult thinks of suffering.
LINDA: "I guess only death will reveal if that was enough. The problem is...then it is too late."
Too late for what?
Death is the end of life. End of story. My belief. No one has come back from death to say otherwise.
The Jesus story of his resurrection was recorded by his followers and written decades after his death.
To an ant, we are a god. But we are no god.
There may very well be a being out there in the universe that we would view as a god, as does the ant to us, but it is no god either.
Powers and events that we don't understand are often attributed incorrectly to the actions of a god.
Clapton is God
Linda: I think this guy was thinking about you and "Lisa" and your Bible-thumping, gun-toting ilk when he wrote this. I may not have expressed it in exactly the same way but I think he's dead on - no pun intended.
http://www.truth-out.org/the-wrath-fools-an-open-letter-to-far-right66686
Clapton may be God, CDM. But Ann Miller and Cyd Charisse were GODDESSES!!
tnlib ~ So what? Just another liberal hate-filled rant about how all republicans had their fingers on the gun that shot Gabby Giffords. Somehow it seems fitting that you would choose to post that link as your answer to the things that I have said...the linked information had nothing to do with the subject of discussion and there is absolutely no shred of truth in anything Mr. Pitt said. Why don't you and those who believe that bilge trot right on over to your local police station and press charges against all conservatives as co-conspirators to the crime of murder and attempted assassination of a government official? Does that seem logical to you? I'm sure it does.
Have a wonderful night...sigh.
I dunno. I think putting you guys in concentration camps might be a better solution.
tnlib said ~ "I dunno. I think putting you guys in concentration camps might be a better solution."
Well, here we have it...the progressive solution for the political opposition...Auschwitz. And YOU call conservatives Nazis. How pitiably sad is your suggestion.
Think Beck.
Sadly for Baltimore Ravens and Atlanta Falcons fans, the world ended last night.
I think that was predicted in Leviticus.
Appropriately the demise of the Detroit Lions at the hands of it's antiChrist, Matt Millen, was prophesied in The Book of Daniel.
I don't know why my left leaning friends aren't seeing the light.
God bless you Linda and may God bless your New York Jets. You and your alter egos, Malcontent included are still living in Long Beach New York, aren't you?
Truth I have to side with Linda on that issue. I met her long ago on her other blog, she's a legit teabagger who likes rug hooking and God.
I just want to be your 100th commenter.
My favorite source on the supposed "end times" is Revelation: Four Views by Steve Gregg. The book demonstrates the multiple ways to interpret Revelation and, in my opinion, debunks the end times interpretation.
MUST reading if you want to debate your brother next time.
I'm glad you are my 100th Leslie!
actually I had to send Lindas comment to spam inorder for you to get the honor, she had nothing of interest to say anyway! I forgot I had moderation on for posts older than 2 days.
thanks HR, maybe I will read that.
I promise I'm working to come up with something new to talk about.
Thanks for a spirited and interesting debate!
I changed my mind, The Stig is God.
If God is perfection, then Olivia de Havilland in "The Heiress" was, is, and forever will be God.
I thought my knowledge of scripture would have enlightened everyone by now. Although it's difficult to argue with Lisa. She knows her stuff.
I also had to check out the Heathen Republican.
There is no such thing as "legitimate" religion, period. Getting away from a "legitimate" religion is what the founding of this country was all about.
A point about religion...
There are a lot of religious people out there are perfectly harmless, never thrust their beliefs on others, always act with the utmost compassion and tolerance, are just quietly and privately religious.
I have to say it: that sort of religious person- the so-called 'genuine' Christian - is more often than not of the Left.
They don't gather in mass movements aimed at dehumanizing gays. They don't call liberals the spawn of Satan. They don't wish death and destruction to anyone who doesn't happen to share their religion. They don't have 20 underage wives in a compound somewhere who have never been to school. They do productive work with indigenous communities and disadvantaged groups. They're good citizens. They pay their taxes.
The Right - whose malignancy, of necessity, requires greater organization and unthinking obedience - have too much sway with appealing to religious identity, and if we dismiss religion altogether... we'll end up helping them.
Magpie, your obvious disgust for anyone on the right demonstrates your own lack of thought. I'm certain you and I disagree on just about everything, yet it doesn't even occur to me that you are a "malignancy".
I know plenty of the religious right, and none of them dehumanize gays, think Liberals are from Satan, wish that I were dead, or have underage wives (let alone 20). Either you live in an echo chamber surrounded by other liberals like yourself, or more of your Christian friends are conservative than you know.
As for unthinking obedience, I can give you a crystal clear argument for my own political positions, and I'd be happy to explain why yours are wrong. And none of my arguments will be based on religious faith.
You have a caricature view of the Right. Would you like the Left to be defined by its extremists?
Heathen I think Magpie is referring to cults, which are plentiful in our country and yes the leaders absolutely take MANY MANY young girls as their wives to have sex and babies to grow their numbers. Its sickening to say the least. These cults use religion to justify the raping of children for their sick sexual pleasures.
Will where is this obsession with OLD women coming from?? Ann Miller??? Nah....
"I know plenty of the religious right, and none of them dehumanize gays"
I'm sure you do. There are many who do, however.
What I've said is that it is not the case that everyone who is religious is also Right-wing, or a nut, or both.
You disagree with that?
Of course I don't disagree with that, but that wasn't the only point you made. You suggested that liberal Christians were more genuine than conservative Christians. And that Christians who are "not of the left" (e.g. of the right) exhibit cult-like behavior (as Sue described it). As I said, this is a caricature of the religious right based on its extremists.
I agree with you that the right leans too heavily on religion, which is my own crusade. Conservatism is the better ideology, and it can be articulated without a dependency on religious belief.
"Conservatism is the better ideology," --THR
I'm sure you have plenty of selective arguments to back that statement. But IMHO, there is something good to be taken from conservatism AND liberalism.
Absolutism? Not so much.
If it weren't for the liberal revolutionary ideas of our Founding Fathers, we'd still be speaking English [joke] (although at some point the British Empire would have lost its American colonies anyway, as it did all its others.)
The conservative Tories stuck with the King, and eventually fled to Canada.
Liberalism brought us the end of slavery (yes, the liberal northern Republicans like Lincoln's Secy. of State, Seward, and his Secy. of Treasury, Salmon Chase, both northern abolitionists,) not southern conservative pro-slavery Democrats. Both of these men did not believe Lincoln was liberal enough on the subject of slavery.
I don't need to list all the other advancements liberal policies have given us and that conservative ideology opposed. But here's a partial list.
There is no ONE-SIZE-fits-all ideology for a country as diverse as the US.
But I do unerstand the impetus behind wanting everyone to support and believe that only conservatism can save them.
It's wrong, we know, but not an unusual ideological mindset.
We don't need to listen to someone like Lisa, whose only goal is to keep the flames of hatred going.
These are her words posted at her favorite blog:
Lisa said...
"I hope these republicans never forget who they represent and not fall hook,line and sinker for the 'Traitor in Chief' now wanting unity."
"The left really are the enemies of this country and the good news is the more they flap their slanderous jaws the more they did the hole deeper..."
These are the words of an eliminationist--someone who would advocate for getting rid of people who hold ideas contrary to hers.
This sort of invective is also vicious and stupid and has no place in our national conversation after what happened in Tucson.
But apparently, Lisa can't control herself. Hatred is an ugly thing and makes the person who continues to embrace it repugnant.
I wasn't trying to be absolutist, which is why I said conservatism is better, not best. Anyway, I guess it all depends on our definition of "liberal" because I agree with you about liberal revolutionary ideas.
Personally, I'm happy that today's leftists/liberals would rather be called progressives, because I think they've forgotten what liberalism is. Conservatism is the new home for historic liberalism.
In a normal political environment, I would agree that we could take great ideas from different ideologies, but the left has lost its way. In today's political environment, Democrats simply can't be trusted, so conservatism is the only rational choice.
Perhaps when the radicals get pruned from the Democratic party (I almost said "culled", but someone would think I'm advocating murder), we can return to a healthy debate about ideology.
WOW.... A long thread. I am a graciously agnostic fellow. I really don't care what others think about 'God'. I always seemed to think of the bible as an older version of Moby Dick..... they are both lengthy and are mostly filled with irrelevant information concerning a chase of a Great White Whale.
Heathen said..
"the left has lost its way. In today's political environment, Democrats simply can't be trusted, so conservatism is the only rational choice.
Perhaps when the radicals get pruned from the Democratic party (I almost said "culled", but someone would think I'm advocating murder), we can return to a healthy debate about ideology."
I find this statement hilarious, and would easily switch your word democrat with republicans or conservatives and have the TRUTH.
okjimm, what is it they say about talking religion and politics?
BTW, for me personally, the conservative Christians I know are hypocrites, NOT ALL, but MANY. Liberal Christians are tolerant. Liberals in general are more tolerant.
Lisa,
You have a blog. Why don't you and mal use it to work out your elminiationist fantasies and leave us grown-ups alone.
Thanks.
Liberals are more tolerant
Some examples:
Juan Williams, fired from NPR for discussing his thoughts (not his actions), which leftists found offensive
Larry Summers, driven out of Harvard for suggesting male and female brains are different
Clarence Thomas, publicly humiliated for forgetting that black men are supposed to follow the leftist party line
Condoleeza Rice, called Aunt Jemima, once again for not following the template that progressives have put on black politicians
THR: "Juan Williams, fired from NPR for discussing his thoughts (not his actions), which leftists found offensive."
Actually it was one woman who fired him, not "leftists," and she has resigned and left NPR--should we say that righties caused her resignation?
THR: "Larry Summers, driven out of Harvard for suggesting male and female brains are different"
Oh, but you ignore Ward Churchill's dismissal from the UC at Boulder for expressing his ideas--something protected by the Constitution.
Clarence Thomas, publicly humiliated for forgetting that black men are supposed to follow the leftist party line.
And Sotomayor was labeled a racist by the Right.
And then there's the smear campaign by Breitbart who tried to pin racisim on Shirley Sherrod.
THR: "Condoleeza Rice, called Aunt Jemima, once again for not following the template that progressives"
My, my. Haven't you heard that certain elements on the right think Mr. Obama is a Communist, Marxist, Socialst, Fascist, Kenyan, who is a traitor to America and wants to destroy all our freedoms?
If you didn't know this, just ask Sue's pesky troll, Lisa. She'll inform you that Mr. Obama is the "Traitor in Chief."
I'm afraid the Left doesn't own stupid rhetoric, THR, my examples prove it. The conservatives are awfully good at it as well.
THR's 11:39 comment raises a valid issue and deserves a serious answer.
There is intolerance on the left, far too much of it. To your examples I would add apologetics for intolerance -- specifically, the tendency of many on the left to defend and make excuses for Islam, the world's most terrible persecutor of gays, women, and non-religious people. I would point out that, at least, blogs that identify primarily as atheist or gay are much more up to speed on the reality of Islam than most primarily liberal-identified blogs are.
Criticism of Clarence Thomas or Condoleezza Rice should focus on their views and actions, without throwing in disgusting racist references -- just as criticism of Palin should focus on her views and actions, without the kind of disgusting sexist rhetoric that pervaded the 2008 election. The fact that some liberals sink to such rhetoric is disturbing.
Nevertheless, the intolerance of the right is much more dangerous.
Most right-wing intolerance today is not aimed at racial minorities, at least not explicitly. It is aimed at gays and atheists and, in a more diffuse way, at secular modernity (hence the opposition to abortion).
Broad swaths of conservatism opposed the abolition of anti-sodomy laws. They continue to oppose gay marriage. They fight endlessly to restrict abortion as much as they can, with the explicit goal of making it a crime again. Some Christian Right groups have even fought against efforts to stamp out anti-gay bullying in schools. Such activities threaten the freedom, rights, and happiness of millions of Americans. They are not only rhetorical expressions of bigotry. They are an imminent danger.
As for demonization of gays, it takes a very determined myopia to avoid noticing this. Several Christian Right groups, for example, have threatened to boycott the upcoming CPAC conference due to the participation of a gay conservative group.
I would recommend for you the Republic of Gilead blog, which is largely dedicated to tracking this issue.
Shaw, I was rebutting a specific comment that Sue made. I didn't claim that the right isn't intolerant (Infidel offers great examples), but I had to respond to the statement that the left is tolerant.
If your best rebuttals are Ward Churchill to Larry Summers and Sonia Sotomayor to Clarence Thomas, I hardly need to reply. They both made objectively offensive statements. Little Eichmans? And Sotomayor brought race up by suggesting that a wise Latina could "reach a better conclusion." I think Sotomayor is one for my column, not yours.
I suppose you would see nothing wrong hearing that a "wise white man" would reach better conclusions on the Supreme Court?
You might disagree with Larry Summers's conclusions with regard to gender differences, but his statement doesn't rise to the level of Churchill or Sotomayor.
Come on, you can do better. Follow Infidel's example and try harder next time.
When I say liberal Christians are more tolerant I was referring to my family,friends and community, people around me, not professionals on TV or in politics.
Most of the people that I know do not engage in this relentless left vs. right fantasy/food-fight. They basically see it for what it is; a puerile/infantile attempt to glorify the particular. And they totally eschew it (ultimately picking the lesser of the 2 evils come election day).
I'm a little late here but "Linda" might learn something reading this;
the truth problem
Her original post linked to the Focus on the Family, program this blog debunks.
The best part the blogger uses Christian theology to debunk it.
IE:
Unfortunately, The Truth Project is problematic in two critical ways.
First, it is problematic with regard to intrachristian issues. Several of the philosophies and doctrines promoted by The Truth Project -- at the expense of others -- are in alignment with some Christian traditions. But the program packages them in language that suggests that these philosophies and doctrines are universally accepted as "essential Christianity." This overlooks the fact that other legitimate Christian traditions hold different positions, inhibiting open and critical examination of these disputed issues. It is an attempt at Christian unity by way of unjust exclusion (1 Cor 3:4-10).
Second, it is problematic with regard to factual information. In the series, many different beliefs about science, doctrine and philosophy are attacked. Unfortunately, they are also misrepresented; the attacks are upon "straw men." Opposing views should always be fairly and accurately represented, not only because it is wrong to give false testimony (Exod 20:16), but also because the believer's faith will suffer when he later discovers the actual truth (Matt 18:6).
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