Really, I know I shouldn't, none of the sane people on the left should visit the retards on the right and try to have a civil conversation about the HC bill and the good it will do for Americans. BUT, I did not take my own advice and this rightwing moron wanted me to write a summary of the bill and what's in it for her and her retard blog friends. When I gave her this CBS news link she went into a ranting tirade and said she HATED the bill, she doesn't care what's in it, she doesn't even care that it's the same as Romneycare and Romney is her GOD!! So my friends that tells me one thing and one thing only... she HATES liberals, she HATES Obama with a passion, she HATES smart people who show her up, she HATES the HC bill because a Democrat president is responsible for HC reform, A BLACK Democrat President Obama. Why oh why do I bother, they are still talking death panels and birth certificates, fear mongering and hate mongering, the anti-Christ and Jesus Christ, Bush versus Obama, they want Bush to come back and Reagan to rise from the grave and join him.
MORONS!!!!!!!!!
Health Care Reform Bill Summary: A Look At What's in the Bill
By CBS News Capitol Hill Producers Jill Jackson and John Nolen
Cost:
- $940 billion over ten years.
Deficit:
- Would reduce the deficit by $143 billion over the first ten years. That is an updated CBO estimate. Their first preliminary estimate said it would reduce the deficit by $130 billion over ten years. Would reduce the deficit by $1.2 trillion dollars in the second ten years.
Coverage:
- Would expand coverage to 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
- The uninsured and self-employed would be able to purchase insurance through state-based exchanges with subsidies available to individuals and families with income between the 133 percent and 400 percent of poverty level.
- Separate exchanges would be created for small businesses to purchase coverage -- effective 2014.
- Funding available to states to establish exchanges within one year of enactment and until January 1, 2015.
- Individuals and families who make between 100 percent - 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and want to purchase their own health insurance on an exchange are eligible for subsidies. They cannot be eligible for Medicare, Medicaid and cannot be covered by an employer. Eligible buyers receive premium credits and there is a cap for how much they have to contribute to their premiums on a sliding scale.
Paying for the Plan:
- Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).
- Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.
- Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.
- Closes the Medicare prescription drug "donut hole" by 2020. Seniors who hit the donut hole by 2010 will receive a $250 rebate.
- Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap will receive a 50 percent discount on brand name drugs. The bill also includes $500 billion in Medicare cuts over the next decade.
- Expands Medicaid to include 133 percent of federal poverty level which is $29,327 for a family of four.
- Requires states to expand Medicaid to include childless adults starting in 2014.
- Federal Government pays 100 percent of costs for covering newly eligible individuals through 2016.
- Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicaid.
- Six months after enactment, insurance companies could no longer denying children coverage based on a preexisting condition.
- Starting in 2014, insurance companies cannot deny coverage to anyone with preexisting conditions.
- Insurance companies must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26th.
- The bill segregates private insurance premium funds from taxpayer funds. Individuals would have to pay for abortion coverage by making two separate payments, private funds would have to be kept in a separate account from federal and taxpayer funds.
- No health care plan would be required to offer abortion coverage. States could pass legislation choosing to opt out of offering abortion coverage through the exchange.
Individual Mandate:
- In 2014, everyone must purchase health insurance or face a $695 annual fine. There are some exceptions for low-income people.
- Technically, there is no employer mandate. Employers with more than 50 employees must provide health insurance or pay a fine of $2000 per worker each year if any worker receives federal subsidies to purchase health insurance. Fines applied to entire number of employees minus some allowances.
- Illegal immigrants will not be allowed to buy health insurance in the exchanges -- even if they pay completely with their own money.
Nikki you're missing Hannity, better go before you miss the part where Palin comes on to spew her stupidity.
90 comments:
Isn't education a wonderful thing.
Educate and rightwing nutfucks do not go together. If it wasn't the health care bill, it would be something else. They are ignorant, scared, racists. They are tools of the elite. Simple tools who vote against their own self interests. They are American kamikazes -- in this case kami-crazies.
I hate to tell you this, but if "Romney is her God", she is actually one of the less crazy ones. The real ultras wouldn't touch Romney with a ten-foot pole because he's a Mormon.
So if you'd been talking to them, you'd probably have gotten even worse results.
Their concept of "limited government" is that the only legitimate domestic functions of government are banning abortion and harassing homosexuals and non-Christians. The health bill does not conform to that, therefore it is Communist.
Some are born stupid. Some choose to be stupid. Others succumb to the stupidity that is thrust upon them. Republicans are in all three of these categories.
I think after 4 years of blogging I've found maybe a half dozen righties worth talking to.
I don't know if the "Nikki" you're talking about is the same one that friended me and wanted me to be a voice from the left on his site. One comment and some idiot with robot avatar told me to go away because he hated Truth. I left but did admire his ironic honesty. A liar honest enough to admit he hated Truth.
Correct me if I'm wrong Sue, but you must be referring to the mormon cow in Utah that alledgedly was going to "expose" me or something like that.
MOOOOOO!
yes C, that would be correct!
Truth the NIKKI is female so sounds like a different conservative then who you encountered.
Infidel she is crazy even if she loves Romney :-)
Jerry yes all of the above
Holte I try and do my part, we all need to speak out about the stupidity! :-)
Sue, you shouldn't mention the mormon cow by name, it only lends her credence and makes her feel special, when she clearly isn't. The more that cow gets acknowledged, the more of a voice it gets.
MOOOOO!
Hey Lisa! Did you hear about your titular (He he. I typed titular) head of you republican party, Michael Steele spending party funds at a bondage bar in California? Did you meet him there? Did you spank him like Rush Limbaugh did? Did you tie him up and make him swear fealty to less taxes, government and Cheney? Was Liz Cheney there? I heard she cracks a mean whip herself.
TRUTH - You beat me to that one. I've always said that the conservatives are SO supressed that they go against their alleged values and do pervrse shit in private while shaming those that do it out in the open. Typical, absolutely typical. Christian conservatives, my ass! They simply do not exist.
so...no one here has any issue whatsover with the constitutionality of requiring individuals to buy a product? Please do not flame me, I am attempting to understand your points of view.
I am not Ignorant, scared, or racist. I do not wish to vote against my self interest. I miss the part where it is ok for the government to take money from me that I earn to give to someone else. It appears to be state sanctioned mugging to me.
I would not touch Romney with a ten foot pole because he is a wishy washy DC politician, Mormon or not, he is a weathervane changing direction witht the political winds.
My concept of limited government has absolutely NOTHING to do with harassing homosexuals, although I do believe that aborting a baby deprives if of ever having a life; mostly I believe the govt should get out of the legislating morality business- MINE or YOURS.
The health bill seems to subvert the constitution and my natural rights; it appears to give Govt the control over healthcare and more importantly student education and therefore seems collectivist. Communist if you prefer.
If you all promise not to talk about Michael Steele, I won't bring up Rahm Emanual, Jeremiah Wright, John Edwards, Joe Biden, or Keith Olbermann. You have your idiots too. Michael Steele is a boob. How he went from crappy talking head on the news to leader of a political party I am still scratching my head over. Of course there is still the conundrum of how with only two working brain cells Biden remembers to breathe.
Lastly, I fail to see how it is more desireable to have bad behavior and flaunt it than to engage in bad behavior and attempt to hide it; Liberal and Conservative politicians are largely scum, and all are guilty of bad behavior. How is it that if you do not subscribe to morals it is better than if you do?
really I figure we all want the same things, we just see certain issues differently, and I am trying to see some from another perspective.
lisa the lying liar lied,
Another smear post. You single out someone and demonize them. This is same attitude as the useful idiots at MSNBC and the dismissive arrogance of the Democrats that is pissing off Americans and the reason why most of them/us want them out.
You better check the approval ratings of your wet dreams, Boehner and McConnell. Maybe people are miffed at the dems, but they certainly don't want any more of your kind of stupid.
If you all promise not to talk about Michael Steele, I won't bring up Rahm Emanual, Jeremiah Wright, John Edwards, Joe Biden, or Keith Olbermann. You have your idiots too.
You're batting .200 here. In other words, you don't have a point.
Consult facts instead of what Beck tells you to think before posting.
KOOK: no one here has any issue whatsover with the constitutionality of requiring individuals to buy a product?
You're already required to buy car insurance if you own a car, which is a de facto necessity for most people. That passes constitutional muster, apparently.
I miss the part where it is ok for the government to take money from me that I earn to give to someone else.
That's called taxation. Nobody likes it, but it's both constitutional and an unfortunate necessity if we're to live in a functioning society.
If the mandate were challenged and found unconstitutional, the rest of the HCR bill would still stand. Presumably the government would then be forced to go to a single-payer plan so that they system could function by funding universal coverage via taxation rather than a mandate to buy from private insurers.
KOOK I will give it a shot...
what the democrats are trying to do is bring down the cost of insurance, therefore having all covered will do that they say, lets give them the benefit of the doubt and let things take their course before we condemn. That seems to be the problem, your side does not even wait to see if an idea will work, its automatic condemnation.
second, with the education bill, all they did was get rid of the middleman(banks) which in turn will make education costs lower. So they say, give it a chance to work before condemning.
you have your point when it comes to both sides having their talking heads. I don't agree on two of them. Biden is more then qualified to be VP, in fact he is more then qualified to be president. Just because one has a slip of the tongue now and then does not make him stupid.
Rachel Maddow is highly intelligent and when she works on a story she does her damnedest to be fair and always tells the truth. I don't think I'm being partisan when I say that either.
Now, when you whine about the government taking your hard earned money you seem to think that it's always the rich who have to share with the poor. I don't ever hear the middle class or the working poor cry about taxes, how come?? We give in taxes too, and we make a minuscule amount of money compared to the top 1% in the country. Why is it they who cry the loudest? GREED???
Stealing money and freedom from the people, redistributing to the other what they didn't earn, consolidating power while playing victim; planting the crowd with your fake people; lying and blaming others. Like people won't see your hilariousness. Here's the facts America the left are straight up liars and playing us stupid; the wasn’t no racism that day not like using affirmative action other man got my job and my money based on the cultural diversity without even a degree.
Nope if we wanted to pick a racist fight with you my liberal race baiting friends, they’d be more than your lies floating around; there be blood strewn around the ground.
Non-violence was the objective expressing our right to freedom; were tired of being blamed because we happen to white. To all you race baiting and race card playing minorities you are playing with fire; you don't want to really ignite the anger within because we are sick and tired of the racial pin.
Take that racist bullSh&T allegations and just keep flapping those lips; Because all I have to say to any stupid fools that get sucked up in to being politically correct; once and for all we weren’t doing nothing and we don't give a sh&T. Get real America I have been hearing this anti-white crap from the left too long, matter fact my great-great grandfather was in the Union Army and died fighting against Slavery to free the people that was your kin. Know you’re going to try and blame me cause I happen to be White standing in crowed expressing my rights. The sad story is your lies about racism and calling us cracker’s on the streets; are creating the anger towards your color that you fear; you are actually creating the racism in others that you claimed hear. Bunch of liars them congress people the other day; they are the liberal socialist propagandists that only now how to spread fear; change and hope was the promise[lie] last election; know that mainstream America knows their true goals; the latest is an attempt to spread fear and hatred creating ciaos so they can try win the election this year.
Fear not my freedom loving friends including all colors and cultures the Tea Party is here.
This is an attempt to raise up barriers of our community trust because the liberal progressive socialists just don’t want conservative minorities to join us; you see even though you are all welcome here in our movement; you see they fear that you their followers might listen to us and make the escape and fight with us against the socialist slavery they hold dear..
Continued Below:
Continued:
Before my marriage my friends from school and girls I used to date some were black; but they got you all thinking I am some racist jack. Matter of fact we never owned a slave in my family tree; not a one only died helping set them free; you see my family came from way up North you see in land on Lincoln wearing the Union Blue. Just stop and think my fellow Americans the reality is that they are controlling you all the liberals are by trying to keep us from using dialogue to reach understanding and for you to see the truth and enter the light. Every day I am polite and kind to all minorities if you knew me you’d see; yet because I am Indian I am labeled racist snake using a stereotyped smear. These racist labels is wearing old and our patience is thin because they want us to spend our time fighting over our skin. To the liberals we holler no not ever will we surrender our guns, our freedoms, our speech or our doctors! No not today or next year; we will not stop until they repeal this socialist plan and stop the dictator Obama from forming his leftist IRS based Pollitburo here. The Dem’s got you all fooled my fellow Americans; wish you would wake up and realize the we are your friends; please quit claiming that something that happened many generations ago is still near and join the effort to protect your freedoms we all hold so dear.
Ignore the propaganda from the communists and leftist dictators for they will enslave us all. Remember they the National Socialists in Germany they created ciaos against the Jews they did; through false stories and lies; they created the anger against them like the anger against the Tea Partiers they are stirring here; calling em tea baggers and try to pick a fight.
Then like in Germany when the real fight start in streets and there is blood in the night; [the socialist killed and destroy businesses in disguise] the politicians then will request all rights be given to them thru martial law. Then let just remember the congress of the day voted all their rights away to the leader who caused it all; the biggest trick was he was the one caring the stick. Millions died and freedoms were lost so I ask you to look again and come meet with us my colored friends so we can make amends and work together to correct the past and to work to ensure a way of keeping our freedoms and the American Dream.
Radomu, you got it twisted my friend. It's not the liberals who are racist. It's the teabaggers who are racists. You are Indian and are allowed to party with the baggers?? Hmmmm, interesting..
Let me take a stab at KOOK also.
You are the party of "personal responsibility." Yet you would rather have people that can afford cars but not , ahem "afford insurance" driving them around. These mandates are about personal responsibility. Whether it be responsibility for the 4,000 pound machine you're operating, or your own body and it's health care.
KOOK: I know you're trying to be sincere. Your argument is totally without merit and goes against what the ideals of the right conserning responsibility are. If your kids or wife have no health insurance you will still take them to the emergency room. You won't let them suffer and/or die becuase some kooky sense of "freedom" compels it.
This shows that the left is truly the party of personal and fiscal responsibility. We want everyone to help pay for our government and programs that keep us safer and make life better for all Americans. Your position exposes the right for what it is when the blinders are taken off. The group that wants everything but is unwilling to pay for it.
Fantastic, this is what I wanted. Real Conversation from Real People who seem to want to also have real conversation. Thank you for not flaming.
@infidel: Yes I am required by my STATE to buy insurance for my car. I agree a car is a de facto necessity for most people. This is not the same as a "facto" necessity. I cannot choose to have whether or not to have this body.
Taxation, yes I am familiar with the concept. But is it ok to tax me to provide for someone else in every instance? In what instance would it NOT be ok for the Fed to tax me to the benefit of someone else in order to gain favor with that group, in your opinion? Taxing all of us to provide for the security of the Nation, for Postal and Military roads, for running the offices of government, I get that. I understand my state and local government taxing me for public schooling and public parks and public transportation. I am with you there, especially on a State and local level. I do not get taxing me at the federal level to pay for someone else's healthcare, food, housing, in a place far away from where I live for political favor of a politician I cannot control at all. What ability do I really have to assert my right for redress of grievance when some politician from CA, MI, NY, or wherever uses my federal tax dollars to subsidise a federal housing program in their state. it is no better than the days of old with the King. Those who take money from me are not representing me in that case. That is just the way I see it.
@Sue, thank you for being civil in your response. I am all for, ALL FOR, lower health insurance costs. I just do not see how this is going to do that. Something does not seem to add up. In my limited experience government control does not make prices lower. Let me give you some background on me. I am 33, divorced, college educated, I work in corporate america, in the mid-south. I make 42k a year gross. I am not rich. I am not a "bible thumper" but I do have faith.
I understand the deisre to give them a chance and take the wait and see approach. Really I do. I pride myself on being a pragmatic realist. The problem as I see it is that once begun a government program or bureacracy never dies. The Dept of Energy is a good example, the ATF is another. Why do we have an ATF, and FBI, and a DHS? Why do we need another panel of reducing our dependance on foreign energy; that is the DOE's mission as stated under Carter. What have they done? It is getting to where FedEx is cheaper than the Post Office, an Amtrak Ticket to Chicago costs what a Plane ticket does, farmers with their subsidies make less than they did before. on and on. Our history seems to be littered with governments good intentions gone awry. So I am a little apprehensive of giving them a pass on this attempt. Especially when we are told that "we have to pass the bill before we know what is in it" - Nancy Pelosi.
But, the Education thing worries me even more than the healthcare issues. It is such a tiny small jump to make that in order to qualify for Federal Loans on education that not only where you go, but what course of study could be implemented as par to of the approval process that it is all just a little too dystopian for my tastes. I think the private loans kept the Government somewhat honest. Want to go to a private christian school -bzzz nope. Not on federal money... Want to go to school in Tx to be a lawyer? bzz sorry we need Doctors in CA. that is my fear, that is what many other countries do, and that is not what this country is about.
Ok. On paper Biden has a good resume, but to characterize his verbal diarhea as "occasional" is stretching it. The man is a walking gaffe machine. He is as embarassing as Dubya was, you know it is true. I do not dispute Maddow's intelligence at all. I know the lady is smart. She is also very capable of being a good journalist, but starting in '08 she got every bit as hateful and catty as anyone anywhere else in the news. I used to not mind watching her as an interesting counterpoint, but not anymore.
@sue, and Infidel
referencing the middle class or working class crying about taxes. that is me, and I am crying. Do you know how bad it angers me to hear people who do very little to help themselves act like they won the lottery every March? I work my ass off and pray I dont have to pay in any more. I see half my income disappear...just gone...and then see cars in front of the low income housing nicer than what I can afford. People get back 3x what they pay in, how is that right? I went to college and have what most would consider a good job, and after taxes my income is about what someone who does just barely enough to get by makes after their tax "rebate" at the end of the year. what is the point of working? Rich people inspire me, I dont begrudge them their fair earnings. People on the "struggle" do not inspire me, and I look at the two ideaologies' philsophies and think "which one of them can best help me achieve my dreams" I do not see the Liberal approach helping me up. Keeping me from starving, maybe, actually helping me prosper, not at all. And the price seems to be chains limiting what I can eat, how much I can eat, where I go, what I drive, how warm to keep my home, what doctor I will use, what I earn, where I work, everything.
Just my opinion folks, not trying to start a fight. Just want to talk. You guys ever get tired of talking to each other and agreeing? I do, I get tired of people giving me the amen for everything I say, we just keep digging trenches, I want to talk to sensible people who differ with me to try to reach an understanding.
@Sue,
Saying all Tea PARTYiers (tea bagger is really offensive)are racists is like saying all Liberals are dope smoking welfare hippie communist sympathizing felons. It just is not true at all.
I was in DC on 912. There were a lot of old white folks, yes. There were a lot of young white folks. There were blacks, asians, and hispanics, too.
This is NOT about race, Sue, not at all. I am NOT racist. I am not a homophobe. I am not going to get drawn into a "let's count your minority friends" game either. Race and Gender are tools used by BOTH sides to divide us. They are using us to play their game of Control, Sue. Do not play into that. Real racists are a dying pathetic 1% of this nation. Just like not everyone who rides a motorcycle is in a gang, not everyone who has a tatto is a gangster, or a delinquent. Not every white man from the south is a racist.
KOOK,
What if it was your State, instead of the feds, mandating you buy health insurance like they do for car insurance? You seem to be OK with the car insurance thing.
KOOK, I know my posts are a little colorful but my guests are always treated fairly.
Baby is awake, I'll be by later! Thanks for the great debate.
@Truth 101. No, you miss my point. Personal responsibility, PERSONAL. If my State (not the Fed) mandated me to have insurance (a la Romney Care in MA) I would not have a constitutional objection. I might still have an objection. The people elected from Whatever state you live in are not accountable to ME. Therefore they should have NO right telling ME what to do in matters that should be legislated by people who are accountable to ME. I have health insurance. My family has health insurance. The other point I was making about the ER is that NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY is denied emergency medical care. Period. The stories about people dying in waiting rooms of dehydration comes from countries where medicine is socialized. In the UK doctors see X patients a day. period.
This debate really comes down to the legitimate role of government. I do not believe the government should take care of us. When you allow yourself to become a dependant (like a child) of society you lose a little freedom. I do not choose to be a ward of the state. I believe the legitimate role of the federal government is to protect us from aggression, and people who prey on the weak internally and externally and other than that, they need to stay out of our lives.
Now for some reality...
But the CBO estimate is misleading, because it must embody the law's many unrealistic assumptions and gimmicks.
Benefits are phased in "so that the first 10 years of (higher) revenue would be used to pay for only six years of spending (increases)," ex-CBO director Douglas Holtz-Eakin wrote in The New York Times.
Holtz-Eakin also noted the $70 billion of premiums for a new program of long-term care that reduce present deficits but will be paid out in benefits later.
Then there's the "doc fix" -- higher Medicare reimbursements under separate legislation that would cost about $200 billion over a decade."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/03/29/planting_the_seeds_of_disaster_104952.html
@jerryCritter. If it was my state, I might still object, the difference is that I can drive in a day to the capitol of my state to talk to the people legislating my life. I know my local representative. Believe it or not I have actually spoken to the man.
If my State enacted a law that I simply could not abide by, I could move. I have thought about moving to TN for example because there is no state income tax at all. State governments are more accountable to the people of their state.
What redress power do I have over some politician elected in some far away state? should we have to contribute money to political candidates in states we do not live in just to try to make sure that someone who is not in ANY way accountable to us makes good decisions for our lives?
What is good for folks in Michigan is not always good for folks in Missouri.
Let's say the Nation regulated the cost of gasoline. At first everyone would say YAY. A study is done and it is found that average cost of a gallon of gas is 2.95 in Fl and 2.85 in MI. 2.90 sounds like a great price to set it at. But wait, it is 2.54 in Missouri. That is the problem with Federal Control. That is what the Founders thought too, which is why we have those restraints in the Constitution.
One small correction. The Reconciliatation act reset the fine from $695 to zero.
TomCat
Are you saying that there is no fine for not having health insurance?
KOOK,
I agree there is more accountability at the state level and that what is good for one state may not be good for another. I am not convinced, however, that something as important as health care should be left up to each individual state.
I believe that were will be a proposal to allow each state to setup a single payer system for themselves. Single payer started in Canada that way.
KOOK I can as a middle class earner and also can speak to my son who is practically poverty earner and single. (the single guys get the shaft on everything including car insurance rates) We have never gotten back 3x more than was taken out in taxes. I have never heard of such a thing. Even my daughter who takes the earned income credit with one child doesn't get back more than she has taken out of her paycheck. You must be listening to haters of the poor.
My understanding is we all will have to PURCHASE insurance, that means we all will have premiums to pay. So why do you think your dollars will be paying for others insurance? We do that now when the uninsured go to ER's.
Your fears are unwarranted. Your fear of education reform especially. You need to calm down and have more trust, Your fear comes from years of a republican president gone awry. This president is trying to get rid of fraud and waste, give him a chance. There has been so much waste in our history we just take it for granted and fear change. But Obama has promised change and I trust him.
Whoa..some spirited political back and forth here between the right and left....
I have no problem with people on the right....unless they have guns. Lots and lots of guns. Loaded. And they're pissed off about something.
And wanting to use them to start their 21st century version of Helter Skelter. But that's another story
BTW....as far as "collectivism"....after the Pilgrims landed in Plymouth and they had their first harvest, they set up the first "public school system" of sorts. A few ears of corn, and we'll teach your kid to read and write.
Education with the cost spread out among a population. Not to mention protection from fires, and law enforcement, and a court system, payed for by the citizenry. A concept going back to the days of the Founding Fathers...and nobody screamed "socialism".
This constant yelling of "FIRE" by the right is getting monotonous, tiresome, and "heard it all before".
But its their inalienable right to scream, if they wish...just leave the guns home, if you please.
I agree Hugh, too many guns and too much screaming going on. It all comes down to fear and distrust. The right doesn't trust us, that's too bad. I think they should don't you?
ratomoo brayed,
Stealing money and freedom from the people, redistributing to the other what they didn't earn, consolidating power while playing victim; planting the crowd with your fake people; lying and blaming others.
You know, I have yet to hear one of you selfish motherfuckers cry about having a good school, or a road you can drive down, or the cops in your neighborhood. Hell, you chickenshits won't fight, but you sure love those wars-as long as SOMEBODY ELSE PAYS for all of it, right?
And you want to talk about redistributing wealth? Let's take Carly Fiorina as an example. She tripled her salary while she slashed payrolls and benefits. She didn't have a profitable company, so how did she do it? RIGHT-she redistributed the wealth. Why is taking from the lower classes and giving to the rich OK, but a good union is "socialism?"
I cannot maintain my decorum when faced with idiotic motherfuckers like you who think you're all intellectuals because you read that psychopath Rand. I wish we could give you stupid sons of bitches your own country and let you run it into the ground, while you were all fucking each other out of every dime you could get your money grubbing hands on. You and your kind not only sure as hell didn't make America a great country, but you've been the downfall of any society you infest in any numbers.
Sue-my most humble apologies. I just couldn't take it.
Jolly Roger:
I don't know who you are addressing your eloquent rant to, but I did fight for my country.
"Spreadin' it around" has failed everywhere it's been tried. The only reason Europe makes a halfway go if it is because we pick up their security tab and they have North Sea crude revenue. Still, like us, they are broke.
Decrying a corrupt and wasteful government in no way conflicts with wanting that government to efficiently provide services.
So are you defending this government that now has us tens of trillions in debt? Are you defending a government that had quadrupled spending on schools while our schools (and our kids' test scores) have gone down the toilet?
Is that the government you are defending? You have low standards.
Fantastic summary. Mind if I link to your post on my next blog post and tweet it around? Great work, my friend! I have been looking for a piece like this for my readers since it passed. Nice job!
Sue you seem like a very sweet lady. My distrcomedies not come from the last 4,8, or 33 years. It comes from history. These people are not altruistic, they are greedy and power hungry. All of them. As for not getting back more than you pay in in your taxes; that is precisely what the earned income credit IS. Money that you didn't pay because you didn't earn it. It us welfare built into our tax code. I know people in Missouri who bank on their tax return every year as a huge part of their income. Stores have sales promoting it. They should call it UN earned income. I am not listening to haters of the poor I am listening to my poor friends and aquaintances. My mother works for DFS. It is widely discussed here.
I know that we will all have premiums, and the ones in the lower end will be subsidized with higher taxes. As I said before I am already insured already paying for insurance (at least until my company gets wise and drips my plan, without paying me the money it coat them, making me worse off than before)so when my taxes go up what would you call it? I call it paying for someone else. These policies just make it harder for me to get to that next level; locking me into this level or the next one lower. The government doesn't produce anything, it cannot give to one without first taking it fro. Somewhere else, doesn't that make sense to you? Your last paragraph... All I can say is wow, uh, I guess you can get back with me in four years. Amazing.
Jolly, roads are constitutional. Legitimate function of government. Our schools? Seriously. They have been in decline ever since the fed took over the purse strings and the unions got involved. We have a 50% drop out rate in many areas, kc just closed like a hundred schools or something. We have thrown more money at them my whole life. Our education system is one of the biggest failures of bloated central government there is. Police officers salaries are paid by LOCAL taxes. Except for federal grants for new equipment and such.
Don't forget to tell the end of the story with the pilgrims and their experiment with communal living: it killed productivity and it nearly starved them out. That us the part y'all always leave out. It didn't last.
U am very very much in favor of lock communities being left in Charge of their local schools. That is where the power belongs not in DC.
Collectivist policy and everything being government rub is not what made this nation te mist powerful nation to have ever existed on this planet. The ussr did not win the cold war for a reason. Their economy did not work. What they dd do was infiltrate our schools and our prisons resulting in widely accepted socialist thought.
Ps. Unions are parasites that feed off of the working people of this country and drive prices up and push jobs overseas. The UAw is the reason the govt owns fm and chrysler, no wait that isn't right. Te uaw and shorty mgmt that appeased the unions for fifty years are the cAuse. No wait still not right; that and a shitty govt. (D & R)
Ps sorry for all the typos. Doing this on a phone
I hope you weren't driving at the same time KOOK! :-)
I'll be by sometime today, lots to talk about.
MommaP of course you can steal from me! :-)
JR and SF thanks for adding to the conversation. Rant all you want.
Do you all see how nice a thread can look and flow without lisa??
seriously KOOK, I don't understand the tea party gangs and what they protest. My husband has been a blue collar worker all his life, hard, back breaking work in factories, refineries, steel mills etc. we were happy to get back less than a third of what he paid in taxes in our refund. We don't complain about taxes, we don't whine about government, we are happy to be alive and continue to work hard and contribute to be able to live in the greatest nation on earth.
teabaggers think they will put their people in leadership positions in Washington and change the whole fabric of our democracy but it will never happen. Palin can scream herself hoarse and it won't change a thing.
The right and their obsession with big government and taxes is something I just don't understand.
lisa I said in one of my comments one of Obamas objectives is to tackle waste and fraud, something repubs never seem to get around to doing.
don't come here and disguise yourself as anonymous, I know it's you
It is kind of funny, how Government has only seen 8 years in the last 30 where waste and fraud actually declined.
I'll give the delusional Rushpubliscums a clue as to when that was: it WASN'T during the era of Saint Ronnie, or the eras of Pere Chimpy and/or the Reign of Error we just left.
lisa, please take your Rasmussen bullshit and shove it deep up your ass. Just try not to give yourself a concussion when you do.
I'm a little late stopping by. My, my, my. Sure is a lot of hot air blowing - and more than enough mythology to last at least a decade. I think the righties have organized to "target" your blog, Sue.
The one thing I like about SF, even tho I don't always agree with him, is that he's always civil and substantiates his arguments with mostly credible sources - unlike so many who simply regurgitate the myths from Beck and Co.
I don't know which chicken-shit anon said there was no evidence that venomous slurs were hurled at Congressmen but apparently he/she has his/her head up the ole wahoo. I bet this individual says there is no evidence that the Holocaust took place.
Beck and Co. keep saying we live in a police state. If that were true, they would all be in jail.
Sue, this is a terrific post - one of your best.
Sue, I don'tind not getting back a little, or none. That is not the point. Look at it from an amount paid in perspective. Let's say you and your husband pay in 30% final. Someone else works a part time job and has two kids and pays in -10%. Disnt u just pay some of their share? Kids dint just happen. The are the logical biological outcome of a (generally) voluntary consensual act. If you can't afford them don't have them. (and I don't mean abort them, I mean protect yourself or gasp don't have sex)
seriously, what % of your income being taken from you would be excessive? 40% 60% ? would 80% bother you?
Does the waste and bullcrap spending and special deals not anger you in the slightest? The Louisiana purchase 2 or the cornhusker kickback? The billions spent in retarded projects like the turtle tunnels in fl. and the roads to Nowhere in w va. All the scandals and corruption? It is not just a democrat thing; u are right the republicans spent like drunken sailors at a frat party. That is what the tea party protests are about. All of the politicians are pretty much scum.
I would not say sue has been targeted. I have been looking for a mirror image to my blog for a while and it seemed that. The discourse here was mostly civil. Nine of us do any good just talking to people who agree with our viewpoint. We will never reach any sort of understanding. The alternative is some sort of divorce or revolution because we cannot keep living like this.
So I wanted a chance to talk to the other side. But calling us all liars and saying we have our heads up our rears really isn't getting us anywhere. I do believe there was a holocaust. And a holodomor. They were both perpetrated by Marxist regimes. I believe we put a man on the moon and we beat the socialist soviets to it. I believe that a lone communist sympathizing nut is who killed Kennedy ( probably the democratic president with the most potential in the last 100 years). I do not believe that dubya and co. Caused 9-11. I am not a birther, although I do have a few questions. Questions which are somewhat irrelevant at this point. I am glad we elected a half black man as president, I am sad that he will probably go down as the worst president in history, causing a serious setback in race relations.
Someone else works a part time job and has two kids and pays in -10%. Disnt u just pay some of their share? Kids dint just happen. The are the logical biological outcome of a (generally) voluntary consensual act.
With all due respect, this is a shit perspective. The younger people are going to have to maintain the society when the older ones slow down. There is an absolute value to society, and trying to nickel-and-dime it this way is intellectually dishonest.
Jolly- so by your comment you are willing to subsidize the raising of society's children on the basis that those same kids will grow up to be productive members of society and will then take care of you in your old age. That is putting Loy of faith and trust in the parenting ability of people who lack the drive or foresight to not have children they couldn't pay for on their own. I really do not want to trust people with that poor of reasoning skills to raise my future caregivers and yet I have no say in their raising either. I am just helping pay for it.
Do not misconstrue it, I am for children and would do anything to keep a kid from being homeless or hungry. This is not about the kids it is about the parents.
I get so steamed. My good friend Jada twenty yr old daughter who dripped out of college, got pregnant, got married, lasted six months, geting divorced has the kid. Living back with mom and dad. On all sorts of govt assistance and makes me and her dad furious because she says she has not done anything bad. She made bad decision after bad decision and now we are all paying for it. And her child now has less of an opportunity than he would if mama would have waited to finish college and had better earnig potental.
yes the women on gov't assistance because of stupidity makes me angry. Even worse are those on welfare while fraudulently living with a man who earns enough to support the family. That's where the fraud and abuse comes in, we need to do some serious work on that. We need to turn our neighbors in who we know are committing fraud. I don't know what else we can do about it. There are poor and needy people and there are abusers, this is a HUGE country how do we find them all? the right probably says get rid of all the programs for the poor, that's how, right?
I don't know the answers, but blaming Obama is not the answer either. This hatred for him and his administration is unwarranted.
I'm all for ending two wars that cost billions, there's where we could start.
Talking about "fair share" of taxes is useless. You will never get broad agreement on what is fair. For example:
Should it be the same dollar amount? Why not?
Should it be the same percentage? Why not?
Should it be based on ability to pay? What does ability to pay even mean?
Should we tax everything over a certain amount? How much do you need to live? Is 5 million enough? Tax everything over 5 million?
Maybe we should look at historically what taxation rates were during the best economic periods? But wait, economic periods for who? The rich, the poor, the middle?
Fair is in the eye of the beholder. The rate is set by those in power. It is not a coincidence that corporate and rich tax rates are at or near their historic lows. And it has nothing to do with "fair".
the right wants an across the board tax rate, to them that's fair. They think if a person is poor and just gets by on their measly salary that it is their own doing and the rich should not be penalized for it.
The rich should be allowed to get richer as the poor get poorer. The rich really don't care, just be FAIR about the taxes you steal from them...
Hi Sue,
see we do have some common ground. A Lot I suspect if we just think about it. Maybe some people say end all programs. I do not; that is another reason I worry about the spending. If we keep putting more and more people on the programs the truly needy will do without just like everyone else when the system collapses; because it cannot go on forever. I don't want that. I want to remove incentives for people wanting to be on assistance. It should not be something to be proud of and it should not be a lifestyle or career choice. I too am ready for the wars to be over. If they are important enough to fight they should be important enough to win. Either way. Let's be done. Win them and come home or concede defeat and come home; what is the point of sustained low level conflict?
Jerry critter and sue,
again sorry for any typos this is from my iPhone.
I am a fairtax proponent. It is not strictly a flat rate which is what you may have heard. No taxes would be paid on food items. No taxes would be paid on income up to a percentage above the poverty level. After that everyone pays about 23% based on what you buy. It is a consumption tax. The more you buy the more you pay. Of you save money like you should your savings are not taxed. That would be more for some and less for others. But most of all it would be as fair as it can get. No loop holes no hiding earnings no cash under the table. A much smaller role for the IRS and if the plan works as it should more revenue.
It is only a "fair" tax because fair in is the title. What you are proposing is a flat tax with a minimum nontaxable income and exemptions for food and savings. What makes is fair? What about businesses? Do they pay any taxes? It is not that simple!
@Jerry Critter - Read up on it. I actually mis-quoted it as well, I get it confused with a couple other proposals. here are some highlights of the fairtax
The FairTax is a single-rate, federal retail sales tax collected only once, at the final point of purchase of new goods and services for personal consumption. Used items are not taxed. Business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services are not taxed. A rebate makes the effective rate progressive.
How does the prebate work?
All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly prebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The prebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the prebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level guideline multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc.
The proper tax rate has been carefully worked out; 23 percent does the job of: (1) raising the same amount of federal funds as are raised by the current system, (2) paying the universal rebate, and (3) paying the collection fees to retailers and state governments. Unlike some other proposals, this rate has been independently confirmed by several different, nonpartisan institutions across the country. Detailed calculations are available from FairTax.org.
Is the FairTax fair?
Yes, the FairTax is fair, and in fact, much fairer than the income tax. Wealthy people spend more money than other individuals. They buy expensive cars, big houses, and yachts. They buy filet mignon instead of hamburger, fine wine instead of beer, designer dresses, and expensive jewelry. The FairTax taxes them on these purchases. If, however, they use their money to build job-creating factories, finance research and development to create new products, or fund charitable activities (all of which help improve the standard of living of others), then those activities are not taxed.
read up more on it, it is actually very well thought out, sensible, common sense approach.
Well, I bet corporations love it. They don't pay any taxes under the Fair (really?) Tax.
Jerry, corporations do not pay any taxes now. Think about it for a second...
If I make apple pies, and it costs me $2 dollars for ingredients and $2 dollars for overhead, and $2 dollars for taxes and I want to make $3 dollars per pie, what do I sell the pie for? Do I sell it for $7 then pay $2 in taxes to net $1 profit; or Do I sell it for $9 and still make $2? I just passed my taxes to the consumer.
THINK about it. The consumer is the ONLY one who pays taxes now, taxes are built into the cost of business. What difference at what point it comes out of the revenue stream?
Do corporations get a windfall with the abolition of the corporate tax?
Corporations are legal fictions that have not, do not, and never will bear the burden of taxation. Only people pay taxes. Corporations pass on their tax burden in the form of higher prices to consumers, lower wages to workers, and/or lower returns to investors. The idea that taxing a corporation reduces taxes on, say the working poor, is a cruel hoax. A corporate tax only makes what the working poor buy more expensive, costs them jobs, lowers their lifestyle, or delays their retirement. Under the FairTax Plan, money retained in the business and reinvested to create jobs, build factories, or develop new technologies, pays no tax. This is the most honest, fair, productive tax system possible. Free market competition will do the rest
Not true. Corporations pay taxes like everyone else. The market place set the price, not the corporate costs. Taxes are part of the cost. It they can't sell their product or service at a profit, they go out of business. Taxes affect their profit, not their price.
Jerry,
we definitely do not agree on this point. Taxes are expenses which all put pressure on price Jerry to say that coats do not affect price is ridiculous.
Costs affect price in terms of what a company can charge for their product and stay in business, but people don't have to pay that price, specially if another company offers a comparable product at a lower price. What people will pay is set by the market place.
But your Fair Tax proposal in interesting. I would make one big change to it. Instead of business paying no tax, how about individual wage earners pay not tax. Tax ONLY business. Do away with individual income tax. All businesses charge a price for their service or product. Add a tax to their price. You buy it, you pay the tax. You don't buy it, you don't pay the tax. It's the ultimate consumption tax and simplifies taxes for every person. No one any longer pays taxes directly. Only businesses pay. It is basically your Fair Tax proposition with the tax on businesses instead of people.
Everybody pays ZERO tax on their income. What could be fairer than that?
I am still trying to wrap my head around what you are saying Jerry. No business anywhere would think of taxes coming out of their margins. Taxes are always figured after sales and EBIT but not final profits. If I was making my apple pies and I figured a two dollar profit and did not put consideration into my tax costs then I would go out of business very very quickly. Right now I have to take raw material costs including taxes into my cost accounting which increases the final cost. Profits must be above the manufacturing costs and manufacturing costs include raw material costs which includes taxes.
Jerry,
Interesting counter proposal on the fair tax. I dont see what the differnce is. You are just proposing changing at what point the taxes are collected. Businesses would be paying taxes on inventory, but they do that now I suppose. I don't really know what the difference would be, but at least we have come to that much of an agreement. You and I both agree that the current system could be better and we might have an agreement on how that could be done. See what happens when the opposite sides can talk things out?
Sorry Kook. The fair tax is much more "fair" to the wealthy who in my opinion should pay more because they benefit from the largess of our Nation the most.
The fair tax would also be easy for the less scrupulus among us to usurp also. I forgot who complained about the extra IRS agents that just got hired but we'd need just as many fair tax enforcement officials to catch black marketers and the like.
@Sue I am not sure but I lose real close to a third of my check. Bonuses are taxed at a (much) higher percentage. Then I get a small amount back at the end of the year usually.
ok, I just looked it up...
According to the internet if you earn between $33.9K and $82.5k you pay 25% Federal. I said 30, and I was somewhat guessing. I was close.
@ Sue, I would not say I obsess over money. I work for a living, and I would like to be able to leave some to my kids. Isnt that what every parent wants? For their children's life to be better than theirs? And as to the scandals and corruption, they are supposed to work for us. They are not our Rulers, they are elected officials. Using your money. Using the money you could leave to your children. The lie and cheat and steal and think they are above us...that angers me. You must be a much nicer person than I am.
I agree that the major difference in our proposals is the point of collection. To the individual tax payer, the difference is big. No more tax forms. No more tax audits. No more tax preparers. No more taxes owed on April 15th. (Of course, no more tax refunds either.)
However, this does not address the bigger question -- is a flat tax (which our proposals essentially are) more fair than a graduated tax? I think legitimate arguments can be made for both. Again, what is fair?
Regardless of points or opinions, the fact is that government enchroachment into the private sector is a move toward soclialism. Leftist leaders have admitted it in vague reference, and even by accidentally blurting it out in some cases. Nonpartisan economists have analyzed this healthcare bill and reported on the damage it is going to do to our economy, our system of taxation and our jobs. Now if Obama isn't stupid, then he must have a plan, assuming he is totally ignoring what the real effects of this bill are going to be. That plan has to be government control, and I can't see how any person left or right could want more of that for any reason. Have we learned nothing from the grand socialism experiments of the past 100 years? Are we so intellectually elite that we feel we can make it work regardless of the failures of coutries much older than we are having failed miserably at it? The failure is in the fact that it suppresses and removes the natural human spirit of motivation and production, not to mention that the financial model just doesn't work. Margaret Thatcher's old saying about the problem with socialism being that you eventually run out of other people's money may be a tired old cliche, but that doesnt make it untrue. Just think about it. After analyzing the miserable financial failures of the other socialist type programs do we really think gov healthcare can work? Social Security proponents used bullsh%t accounting and defecit spending to finance SS, exaclty like what we have with HC, and look at the monster money pit it has become. You liberals are so wise, youre gonna do it again, but THIS time it'll work, right? LOL!
@Jerry the fairtax is progessive because of the prebate. It just caps out at 23%.
@Jerry and Truth101
the fairtax taxes what you spend. The IRS taxes what is earned that you cannot hide or lie about or use loopholes and deductions to reduce taxable income. This encourages offshore hoarding of money that would be better served being used in investment creating jobs and the like.
This repeated notion that the rich benefit from the largess bladdity blah blah. Time to give something back is just a mix of Keynesian economics and unfortunate Marxist thought. 23% is 23% whether you make 10k or 10m. Except 10000 pays 2300 and 10 million pays 2.3 million.
Envy of the rich is a tool used by Marxists to stir up dissent amongst good people. I have never got a job from a poor person. If you cap wealth you will cap investment and job creation. What would be the point of continuing to work at all if your worth was capped at 5 million? Rock stars and rappers could make one tour and retire and never work again. They would live comfortably on their five million. Meanwhile all the studio musicians, roadies, concessions, ticket sellers, merchandisers, and all the people in all the factories that make all of the crap associated with that artist are out of a job. All because we envied someone else who was very successful and didn't want them to get even richer. We will never get ahead by holding others back. Every rich person is an industry. They buy boats and planes need domestic help buy cars travel lots. Fund art. Invest in products. They create jobs just because they lived and were rich. Look at MJ and Elvis. They are still providing jobs and they are DEAD.
If I was bill gates and I knew my first five million was my last and I would be 100% taxed for every dollar over that I would have retired by thirty. If Steve Jobs had done that... No iPhone. We tried this in the past. Taxes on The rich were 80% in the early 20th century and it killed economic growth. Read your history.
Actually taxes before the great depression were low, similar to today. The top marginal rates were 50% to 90% in the 50's - 80's, before Reagan began lowering them, arguable the greatest economic growth period in our history, certainly for the middle class.
@ Sue, we really got off track here, we were talking abou the healthcare bill.
Sue, In rereading what you have written regarding removing the middleman (banks) to make education costs lower...I fail to see a connection.
Colleges charge X for Tuition. What does the College care what your interest rate is on your loan? They don't care where you got the money or what it costs for you to borrow it...they are setting a price, how you come up with the money is up to you.
The Private loans were always meant as an alternative to the Federal ones. Rates were higher, and there was less paperwork and in some cases for some people they were the only alternative. What this has done is removed choice. now the government is the only game in town. The interst rates and the terms of the loan are totally in their control now. Am I supposed to believe that the removal of private lending will make interest rates on government loans lower?
@ Jerry - "I am not convinced, however, that something as important as health care should be left up to each individual state."
why? We cannot buy health insurance across state lines. my health insurance is going to come from a Missouri company, and yours will come from whatever state you are in. This is just the Fed exerting control on what SHOULD be a state process. Look at it this way, if MO tried one thing and TX tried another and FL tried another, we would figure out which one was best real fast. Instead of experimenting at the Hightest level we could try it out several places. Obamacare is pretty much the same as RomneyCare and folks in MA are calling that a failure from what I heard.
"if it cannot be done at the the micro level it should not be attempted at the macro level"
If single payer is so awesome we should try it somewhere and watch its' glowing success, then the states would clamor for it.
p.s. If all of that above is found to make sense then we have to ask ourselves why they wanted it so bad to be Mandated coast to coast and why we had to do it RIGHT NOW. Right Freaking NOW. push push push. And then slowly roll it out over the next decade.
could it just possibly, is it even remotely possible, that this is about growing government further to have more control, and get richer for the select few?
I mean Geez folks, the UN and Fidel Castor, Hugo Chavez, and other dictators are applauding this...the fact they are happy that the USA did something; should at least give us pause.
When someone who hates you thinks and tells you what you are doing is just by golly super...you should think about if they really have your best interests at heart...no?
To go back off topic again,
Current tax, Fair Tax or some other tax system...none of it will be any good as long as the government wastes so much money and spends and borrows without limit.
I have limits, you have limits, the government should have (and does in actuality) have limits. They act like the do not, but eventually (2020 if what I heard can be believed) our debt will outpace our income and we will be in the same position as Greece...or even worse, California.
We have single payer. It is called Medicare and try to take it away from a Senior! They will chop you down at the knees. :)
"This reform of the federal student loan programs will save taxpayers $68 billion over the next decade..."
The federal government was paying a fee to the banks to administer the student loans while accepting all of the liability. Why? It was wasted money. The fed can administer the loans themselves and save money.
Private banks are free to do whatever they want. If they want to give out student loans they can. They just have to accept the responsibility for them. Seem to me that that is the way it should be.
thank you Jerry, perfectly said. Obama is doing a great job of rooting out waste.
@Jerry. Medicare. You kinda got a point there. But then ask then if they think it is just super mega awesome or if it kinda sucks and if they wouldn't mind having a choice.
If that is really how it works out then I can agree with you there.
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